Harvard - Liz's dream or Jeff's dream?

[tequathisy]

I've always been of the opinion that Harvard was Liz's ultimate dream and goal from a very young age. But I've read a few comments lately from people who maintain that Harvard was Jeff Parker's dream that he forced on Liz. I think it's an interesting question. Whose dream was it?

From the very first episode we knew that Liz was smart and ambitious and going places. She wanted to be a renowned scientist, her dream dream job was head of microbiology at Harvard. In her Harvard interview she describes reading Dr. Laura Holt's work and knowing that she wanted to work with her in person. In my opinion, Liz was very passionate about attending Harvard because it was her dream. The arguement that it was Jeff's dream seems to be that he put a poster over her bed when she was five. At no stage, no matter how bad things got between Liz and Jeff, did Liz ever accuse him of pressuring her to attend Harvard and she blamed him, unfairly or not, for a lot of things so it seems to me that it would have been something she would have thrown at him if it was something she resented. She never indicated that she had any other plans for her life than attending Harvard. Harvard itself may have been an idea planted by Jeff but Liz's love of science and her talent at it was all her. She chose microbiology herself.

In season two, after Alex returned from Sweden and Liz realised that staying in the alien abyss would probably mean having to stay in Roswell, she was devasted. It was quite clear that she wanted to travel and see the world and go away to college.

One of the things that really annoys me in fanfic, is when Liz becomes a teen mother happy to be Max's wife and living in Roswell for the rest of her days. (And that applies to any woman.) To me, Liz was too smart and ambitious to settle for Roswell. I have no doubt that she wanted to have a family one day but after she had got her college education, had a blossoming career and seen the world.

Is the arguement that Harvard was Jeff's dream really just a way for writers to justify Liz giving up her dreams and ambitions for a life beyond Roswell?

Would Liz have been happy with Max if it meant not getting to go to college or see the world? Would he have been enough to satisfy her hunger for knowledge and her ambition to be more than a small town gir?


What do you think?

[cardinalgirl]

Just out of curiousity, where do we find that Jeff put a poster above her bed at age five?

I've always considered it Liz's dream, for the reasons that you stated. We find out in the very first episode what a thinker she is, and very quickly what her dream job is. Also, I was taking about half of that argument for me from the Roswell High books, where it is very clear that Liz is saving money to get out of dodge as quick as possible.

I too have been frustrated once or twice about fanfics of Liz staying in Roswell forever and a day, never dreaming of stepping outside her little town because she has Max Evans. *sigh* But I do think that after she'd gone out and seen the world, she would have returned to Roswell, eventually, just because so much that was so influential in her life did happen there. But yeah... just my little opinion.

[begonia9508]

When you are young, what's your parents tell you is really important so Harward was certainly Jeff or maybe even Nancy's dream and it became Liz's dream too....

With the show going - Harward was only mentioned if I remember well - in Wynaman School again -when Liz was trying to get her life back!

EVE

[nibbles2]

Of course is was Liz's dream. I don't understand how anybody could say otherwise.

Not only did Liz tell Topolsky it was her dream but it was her dream, dream job to be head of microbiology. While Harvard may not be known traditionally as a school of science, that doesn't mean that it doesn't have an excellent science department. And you've got to figure, the sceince department in Harvard has got to be better than most other colleges in the world.

In her Harvard interview she describes reading Dr. Laura Holt's work and knowing that she wanted to work with her in person.

I think that's very telling. Liz doesn't want to go to Harvard for Harvard's sake, she wants to go to study a specific subject under a specific teacher. It's not about the prestige for her it's about her love of science and her dream of building a career in that field.

And what's also telling is what Liz and Jeff didn't say. Not once did Liz ever say 'I don't want to go to Harvard.' Nor did Jeff ever mention Harvard as a reason for keeping Max away from Liz. If Harvard was something he was pressuring Liz into then it surely would have come up when Liz was sneaking out and getting arrested and throwing her life away. If was serious about getting her into Harvard he would have sent her to the Wynamn academy far earlier than midway through her senior year.

Jeff may have planted the idea but clearly Liz ran with it.

He was thrilled for her when she got into Northwestern. I don't think it mattered to him where she went but that she went to college and didn't waste her brains and talents in a Utah Jail or barefoot and pregnant.

It's just fanfic readers who want that.

[Zanity]

I'm certain that Harvard was Liz's dream not Jeff's for all the reasons stated above. And I'm not too keen on fanfic that purports to be cannon but says it was Jeff's dream... AU I'm ok with it but I just don't think that's a viable theory for cannon.

But with that said I don't have a problem with cannon fics where Liz decides to be a stay at home mom. I'm not advocating them but I don't mind them...

Sometimes in life new dreams eclipse our old dreams. Sometimes something new comes along that is so much more important to us that we can't even equate with why the old things seemed so important to begin with.

We see this all the time in the area of love (or dream guys/dream girls). It's completely reasonable to expect it to happen in the areas of dream life as well.

Liz: I would do anything if it means being with you.

Now granted at that time they had a death threat hanging over their heads but I think the point is still valid.

"Do you think Liz would consider having a baby at our age with Max?" Maria inquired knowing full well Liz would do anything for Max, but she wasn't sure herself if Liz would go that far.

"It sounds to me Liz and Max are just trying to get some more information for the future. Liz has too many plans for her future. You know, Harvard, Microbiologist, that stuff to do anything that rash at this time." Alex replied not sure if he believed his own words or not.

"Yeah, but all those plans she had were all made prior to Max." Maria confirmed what they both were thinking.

I personally know at least to two women who were very goal oriented and career bent until they became pregnant. One of whom even completed her masters degree and the pregnancy was planned. And the original plan was she was going to work in a lab after the baby was born. But the baby became more important to her. She still has her degree and probably could still find work but she is raising her now 3 year old full time instead. The other woman I referred to had an unplanned pregnancy during her freshman year at college and she too decided to let her husband provide for her, that taking care of her child was more important than the career she had been dreaming about since junior high.

I also know many women who made their careers work around the children they had.

Guys aren't immune to major changes in their dreams and priorities either. Time changes people. Sometimes meeting the right person, or a death of a loved one, or the birth of a child, or maybe even just chancing to read a specific text can change your entire outlook on life.

"There isn't a day that goes by that I don't realize that I have responsibilities that people my age probably won't have to deal with until they're married. But I've made some bad decisions in my life that I will have to pay for, and will continue to pay for. I can't regret any of the choices I've made in the past because that would be like saying I regret having Noah, and that..., Noah is my son. I don't know who I would be if I didn't have him in my life, keeping me grounded. Keeping my eyes open to the realities that surround me." Max took a breath, before he continued.

So I enjoy fics where Max helps Liz follow her dreams to Harvard and I enjoy fics where Liz sacrifices those dreams for dreams she's decided are more important. And I even enjoy AU fics where she asserts that it was her fathers dream. But I don't like it when they make that assertion in a cannon fic.

[Augustus Snodgrass]

I concur with the idea that it was Jeff's dream for her to go to Harvard when she was little, and it became her dream. There was never any mention of Jeff wanting her to pursue a certain major, though.

This is where all of you have been incorrect up to this point. It was always Liz's choice to study *molecular* biology, not microbiology. I don't mean to sound snippy or anything, it's just one of those things that everyone always gets confused, understandably of course. I've done it too.