Rosfic and Twilight

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Sin
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Re: Rosfic and Twilight

Post by Sin » Wed Aug 11, 2010 5:13 pm

I've only seen the movies so I can't comment on the literary aspect of the books but from what I have gotten from word of mouth about the writing quality it always sounded abysmal. Granted it is all in the point of view of a 15-16 year old girls' dairy entries sort of thing but I was just never moved to actually reading the novels. All I got from the series I got through the movies. I do think there are several similarities between everything but I find myself not being able to like the Bella and Edward pairing just because I find the character of Bella to be so completely deplorable. She has no life outside of Edward and she just sits in her room screaming for him for like five months and that just was not healthy in any possible way. But I think I could have gotten over that if the Bella character proved that she had some semblance of love or caring for people other then Edward. I found Eclipse to be so painful because it just underscores everything that Bella is willing to due just to be with Edward. She has no desires, dreams or goals for herself other then to let Edward suck on her neck for all of eternity and I find that to be so offensive. It's like with this novel series Meyer has set women back like hundreds of years.

Bella doesn't care about her father, her mother, her friends, family, a career, higher learning/education, etc. She doesn't want any of these things because she just wants Edward. I find that to be so repulsive in a way because Bella isn't even a full person, let alone her own person. She has simply made herself an extension of Edward and his wants, needs and issues and she continues to give up who she is, her potential, her feelings, her wants, dreams, desires in order to be with him and that isn't love. I know a lot of people have said that Edward is an abusive character and an abusive boyfriend to Bella in his actions (coercing her into situations, manipulating her into staying away from people he doesn't want her around, isolating her from her family and loved ones, etc.) but all I have to say to that is that Bella likes him that way and she doesn't have a problems with it and she most likely wouldn't want him to act any other way. He is perfect to her and has no problems or faults in her eyes it seems.

I don't care for Bella and Edward safe to say and while I do think there are superficial likenesses on the outside I don't think their relationships or personalities are anything like Max and Liz from Roswell. Liz at the very least is more rounded and more of her own person and I think Max is more of his own person too in a way.

As to Midnight Sun and Rosfic, I can see it. But I have always felt that Edwards' eyes were a brighter hazel/brown then Behr's Max were.

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Heavenli24
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Re: Rosfic and Twilight

Post by Heavenli24 » Wed Aug 11, 2010 6:13 pm

Sin wrote:I've only seen the movies so I can't comment on the literary aspect of the books but from what I have gotten from word of mouth about the writing quality it always sounded abysmal.
I've read the books and I have to say that they aren't all that well-written... in one of them (I think it's Eclipse), Bella is in the kitchen with Charlie in the afternoon, then it suddenly goes to later that evening, and then suddenly we're back to the afternoon in the kitchen again - the evening scene was completely out of place and time with the scene, as if it had been accidentally copied and pasted into the wrong part of the chapter!
Sin wrote:I do think there are several similarities between everything but I find myself not being able to like the Bella and Edward pairing just because I find the character of Bella to be so completely deplorable. She has no life outside of Edward and she just sits in her room screaming for him for like five months and that just was not healthy in any possible way. But I think I could have gotten over that if the Bella character proved that she had some semblance of love or caring for people other then Edward. I found Eclipse to be so painful because it just underscores everything that Bella is willing to due just to be with Edward. She has no desires, dreams or goals for herself other then to let Edward suck on her neck for all of eternity and I find that to be so offensive. It's like with this novel series Meyer has set women back like hundreds of years.

Bella doesn't care about her father, her mother, her friends, family, a career, higher learning/education, etc. She doesn't want any of these things because she just wants Edward. I find that to be so repulsive in a way because Bella isn't even a full person, let alone her own person. She has simply made herself an extension of Edward and his wants, needs and issues and she continues to give up who she is, her potential, her feelings, her wants, dreams, desires in order to be with him and that isn't love.
This is my problem with Bella - she has no personality, no goals, no aspirations, other than being with Edward and becoming a vampire. Doesn't she want to experience other things, human things? Won't she miss being human at all? What kind of message is she giving to young readers... that it's okay not to want or need anything out of your life as long as you have a man? I mentioned her lack of personality on one of the Twilight boards, but apparently none of the fans over there agree with me... they reason that because she was only a teenager, she wouldn't have aspirations or life experience yet and maybe if she hadn't met Edward, she would have gone on to develop them, but because Edward came along, it changed the course of her life and that was it for her. I'm sorry, but what 17-year-old doesn't want anything at all out of life?! Even if you don't know what you want to do in the future at that age, surely you have something you would like to experience or get out of your life... such as having a career, having children, taking up certain hobbies, doing certain things etc.

I mean, why on Earth does Edward love her in the first place? Others have mentioned that it's because her blood is so sweet to him and that it's because he can't hear her thoughts, but that's not enough to base a relationship on, especially an eternal one! Similarly with Bella, all we hear about in the books is how beautiful Edward is and how she's always struck by his overwhelming 'beauty', but what about him as a person - his personality, likes and dislikes, life experience etc.
Sin wrote:I don't care for Bella and Edward safe to say and while I do think there are superficial likenesses on the outside I don't think their relationships or personalities are anything like Max and Liz from Roswell. Liz at the very least is more rounded and more of her own person and I think Max is more of his own person too in a way.
To me, Twilight has always kind of felt like a series of fanfics than a novel series (especially Breaking Dawn, which I refuse to acknowledge even exists because it reads like a bad fanfic)... it's like SM was a fan of shows like Buffy and/or Roswell and came up with a cool fanfic idea in her head and then put a lot of herself into the main character... except that instead of being a fanfic, it actually got published. The books do have many similarities with Roswell, including Bella and Edward being Biology partners and him risking exposing his true nature by saving her in public, which then led to Bella finding out what he was (i.e. Max saving Liz in the Crashdown and then telling her what he was).

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Sin
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Re: Rosfic and Twilight

Post by Sin » Wed Aug 11, 2010 7:41 pm

Heavenli24 wrote: This is my problem with Bella - she has no personality, no goals, no aspirations, other than being with Edward and becoming a vampire.
The personality thing is important to note as well. I get that she is reserved and "emo" for the most part. I even get that for the most part "most people don't understand or get her", I think this all makes sense that Bella isn't your typical girl and she feels like an outsider. I can see how people may gravitate toward that aspect of Bella's character. But even if you buy that Bella is never really an outsider because she has everyone falling over themselves trying to love her. The entire high school is enamored by her and wants to like her, be around her and court her. So it's not like she is truly an outcast, Allison Reynolds from the Breakfast Club she certainly is not. So she has the label of being "different" but she really isn't. They try to market her as a loner-no one understands me- girl but she isn't. Because they refuse to give her depth.

I think that's another crux of the problem with Twilight. We don't see why Edward loves Bella. Apparently he just loves the way her blood smells and he is interested because he can't read her mind. While it's a start it certainly isn't much of a foundation like you stated above. I hate the way we don't see why they like one another. All we see is that Edward is just mean to her (and of course that just makes her want him more -I don't get this?- You are exceedingly mean to me that just makes me want you more!) and then they are together. What? What makes Edward love her so? Why does Bella want to die for Edward? Is he seriously this pretty? It's all just so shallow.
Doesn't she want to experience other things, human things? Won't she miss being human at all? What kind of message is she giving to young readers... that it's okay not to want or need anything out of your life as long as you have a man?...I'm sorry, but what 17-year-old doesn't want anything at all out of life?! Even if you don't know what you want to do in the future at that age, surely you have something you would like to experience or get out of your life... such as having a career, having children, taking up certain hobbies, doing certain things etc.
It's all so crazy to me. I also don't understand her complete apathy and careless attitude where her parents are concerned. It's obvious that both her parents love her and want the best for her and yet she is willing to put them through her "disappearing" and never to be found again just so she can run off with Edward. Even after her father tells her that he would never stop looking for her if she went missing. Does she not understand the cruelty in her actions? That she is going to cause her mother and father misery by making them believe she has died away at college? Her parents don't deserve that. Does she really not care at all about how much they love and care for her? It's all just to much. She doesn't want or love anything but Edward. To be honest I don't even think that's love. It's worse then obsession. It's stupidity. She doesn't even have a life outside of Edward. It's crazy.
To me, Twilight has always kind of felt like a series of fanfics than a novel series (especially Breaking Dawn, which I refuse to acknowledge even exists because it reads like a bad fanfic)
I won't see Breaking Dawn because I think Eclipse pretty much destroyed whatever portion of Twilight I thought was mildly interesting.
it's like SM was a fan of shows like Buffy and/or Roswell and came up with a cool fanfic idea in her head and then put a lot of herself into the main character... except that instead of being a fanfic, it actually got published.
Agreed. I feel she tried to borrow a lot from Buffy/Angel as well as from Max/Liz and she used Bella as a self-insert to realize her dream relationship/fantasy. Which is why Bella gets to have everything she wants. She gets to be a sparkly vampire, she gets Edward, she even in a way gets Jacob because he has imprinted on a version of herself through her daughter, and here's the kicker she gets the glory of motherhood but she doesn't even have to raise her and be actual mom and do the hard work! It's a complete fantasy.

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Re: Rosfic and Twilight

Post by Heavenli24 » Thu Aug 12, 2010 1:44 am

Sin wrote:The personality thing is important to note as well. I get that she is reserved and "emo" for the most part. I even get that for the most part "most people don't understand or get her", I think this all makes sense that Bella isn't your typical girl and she feels like an outsider. I can see how people may gravitate toward that aspect of Bella's character. But even if you buy that Bella is never really an outsider because she has everyone falling over themselves trying to love her. The entire high school is enamored by her and wants to like her, be around her and court her. So it's not like she is truly an outcast, Allison Reynolds from the Breakfast Club she certainly is not. So she has the label of being "different" but she really isn't. They try to market her as a loner-no one understands me- girl but she isn't. Because they refuse to give her depth.
I did find it very odd that suddenly everyone was all over Bella when she first arrived - which is another reason why I feel it reads like a fanfic... it's like it's just a fantasy of the author's and not a realistic situation.
Sin wrote:
Heavenli24 wrote:it's like SM was a fan of shows like Buffy and/or Roswell and came up with a cool fanfic idea in her head and then put a lot of herself into the main character... except that instead of being a fanfic, it actually got published.
Agreed. I feel she tried to borrow a lot from Buffy/Angel as well as from Max/Liz and she used Bella as a self-insert to realize her dream relationship/fantasy. Which is why Bella gets to have everything she wants. She gets to be a sparkly vampire, she gets Edward, she even in a way gets Jacob because he has imprinted on a version of herself through her daughter, and here's the kicker she gets the glory of motherhood but she doesn't even have to raise her and be actual mom and do the hard work! It's a complete fantasy.
I've recently been going back and reading some of the Buffy/Angel episodes and fanfic I used to love and have realised that there are more similarities between the show and Twilight than I first thought... the fact that Angel is hundreds of years old, but Buffy is the only person he's ever loved (same as Edward), the fact that Angel's skin is cool (Edwards is cold and stone-like though, which I find a complete turn-off... who wants to kiss ice-cold, marble-like lips?) etc. However, the difference is that Buffy and Angel had depth and personality - you understand why they loved each other and why Buffy was the only person Angel ever fell in love with. She was strong and independent, but vulnerable at the same time, she loved her family and friends and would do anything for them, she struggled between dealing with her calling and wanting a normal life and she never wanted to become a vampire (it was her worst fear!). Can you imagine if Buffy had been just like Bella? Angel wouldn't have gone near her with a barge pole!

Similarly with Angel - he wasn't just a vampire who decided not to drink humans and had never been with a woman... he had 140 years of being a cold-blooded killer (and sleeping around) and then suddenly had to deal with the guilt and remorse of remembering every single life he took. He was a sympathetic character who, like Buffy, showed incredible growth during the course of the shows... whereas Edward and Bella didn't change or grow at all during the book series - they just fell in love and that was it.

I just find it all so disappointing because the books could have had so much potential and could have been an amazing series, yet this is what happened :(.

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Re: Rosfic and Twilight

Post by tequathisy » Thu Aug 12, 2010 3:15 am

Sin wrote: But I think I could have gotten over that if the Bella character proved that she had some semblance of love or caring for people other then Edward. I found Eclipse to be so painful because it just underscores everything that Bella is willing to due just to be with Edward. She has no desires, dreams or goals for herself other then to let Edward suck on her neck for all of eternity and I find that to be so offensive. It's like with this novel series Meyer has set women back like hundreds of years.

Bella doesn't care about her father, her mother, her friends, family, a career, higher learning/education, etc. She doesn't want any of these things because she just wants Edward. I find that to be so repulsive in a way because Bella isn't even a full person, let alone her own person. She has simply made herself an extension of Edward and his wants, needs and issues and she continues to give up who she is, her potential, her feelings, her wants, dreams, desires in order to be with him ...
I don't care for Bella and Edward safe to say and while I do think there are superficial likenesses on the outside I don't think their relationships or personalities are anything like Max and Liz from Roswell. Liz at the very least is more rounded and more of her own person and I think Max is more of his own person too in a way.
That's another thing that goes back to fanfic - In the show Liz was a scientist who dreamed of going to Harvard yet in so many fics she gives up all her dreams to become a teenage mom and wife to Max. It's something that has always irked me about fics because the Liz I know wouldn't have settled for that because she had a thirst for knowledge and learning and she wanted to see the world. I haven't read Buffy fics but I bet there's a fair few where Buffy gives up her slayer duties to become Mrs. Angel/Spikeand a mom.
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Re: Rosfic and Twilight

Post by Heavenli24 » Thu Aug 12, 2010 11:53 am

tequathisy wrote:I haven't read Buffy fics but I bet there's a fair few where Buffy gives up her slayer duties to become Mrs. Angel/Spikeand a mom.
Not so much actually, at least not that I remember. I haven't read any Buffy/Spike stories, but many, many Buffy/Angel stories focus on Angel finally getting his reward and becoming human so he can finally be with Buffy, who is usually still the slayer. Some other stories focus on him becoming human but keeping his vamp strength so he can still fight demons with her and others have him staying a vamp, but not having the loophole in his curse anymore.

Of the Buffy/Angel fics I've read (and I read them religiously for 5 years - age 16-21), the only ones I remember that have her giving up her slayer duties were either when she was allowed to 'retire' and let a new slayer (or slayers) take over, or if she was running away from her life and from Angel (like at the end of season 2) and wanted to forget all about the slaying for a while (usually Angel or someone else would find her and convince her to return to her life though).

In terms of her settling down and having a normal life with a husband and kids and no demons, those plotlines usually only turned up in AU, All-Human fics where she was never a slayer in the first place.

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Sin
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Re: Rosfic and Twilight

Post by Sin » Thu Aug 12, 2010 5:47 pm

tequathisy wrote:That's another thing that goes back to fanfic - In the show Liz was a scientist who dreamed of going to Harvard yet in so many fics she gives up all her dreams to become a teenage mom and wife to Max. It's something that has always irked me about fics because the Liz I know wouldn't have settled for that because she had a thirst for knowledge and learning and she wanted to see the world. I haven't read Buffy fics but I bet there's a fair few where Buffy gives up her slayer duties to become Mrs. Angel/Spikeand a mom.
Well to be fair that is canon for the most part. Liz during the duration of the series does end up sacrificing her dreams to be with Max and the Alien Abyss does end up taking more and more away from Liz as an individual. She wasn't alone in this. Maria ends up sacrificing a lot too as well. But Liz gives up both Harvard and North Western University to run away with him. She gives up the dream of becoming a Molecular Biologist Professor to be with him. She gives up higher learning and all of the possibilities that come with it to run around the nation with Max.

That was what certain episodes like Changes and even Graduation were about. Liz did have to end up sacrificing her dreams to be with Max and I think that's a depressing thought but it happens. Liz gives up a lot to be with Max at the end of the series and in that aspect she and Bella aren't too different at that point. I would say s3 Liz is actually a lot like Bella in the way Liz just with Max after everything and nothing else that happened mattered to her and how desperate she is to keep him at pretty much any cost. It's not her best moment in the series, I think it's Liz at her worst point. But I think it's better that Liz did have dreams, did have aspirations, and did have goals then like Bella who had nothing outside of Edward at all.

As to the Buffy fics, I haven't read too many which have Buffy in a domestic setting. Most Buffy and Angel fans that I have noticed liked the fact that Buffy was a hero, they usually have Buffy and Angel working together to fight evil or something like that. But I think Buffy is in a different position at the end of that series, Buffy closes up the hellmouth so she basically could retire if she wanted too. Her obligations to protecting Sunnydale were fulfilled so she could have a normal life like she wanted to all along, and I don't think people would think less of her for wanting to have normal things, like going to college, etc.

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Re: Rosfic and Twilight

Post by Misha » Thu Aug 12, 2010 6:01 pm

But to be fair to Liz and "going away with Max" by the end of the series, the Special Unit did want to kill her. Even if she had stayed and somehow proved herself plain old human, she was still the significant other to a known alien. There was no chance the Unit would just let her go and have a happy life, Harvard included...

Bella, on the other hand, had the Volturi breathing on her neck, so even if she had seen the light and wanted an out of the vampire world, she was pretty much doomed. And in terms of having a life after the ever after, she's better set. As a vampire, given a few years, she could very well attend anywhere and do anything short of doing it while the sun is out.

Liz is not that lucky... unless fanfiction fixes that ;)
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