Was Michael Abusive?

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Re: Was Michael Abusive?

Post by girl afraid » Fri Jan 16, 2009 10:19 am

nibbles and xmag have already said everything I wanted to, I wholeheartedly agree with both of them.
What I like about candies is that we don't spilt into the Maria camp or the Michael camp and take sides against each other. We see the relationship as a whole and forgive and understand both characters for their flaws. Dreamers don't seem to be able to do that and even stargazers tend to be polarised into two opposing camps.
This is true for the most part, although I find myself in pro-Maria camp a lot, due only to defending her actions against non-candies. She gets a much tougher deal in this fandom than Michael, who always gets a free pass because of his childhood, his alienness and the fact that he stayed for Maria. Nope, I love the guy to bits but he does not get a free pass from me. They both said and did shitty things, but no way do I sit back and watch Maria's entire character be defined by a couple of badly written scenes in season 3 while Michael comes off smelling like roses. They're both accountable but they are both genuinely good characters who loved each other, despite their constant ups and downs. If Michael is forgiven for his less than stellar actions in S1 & S2, then so should Maria be for S3. She left to be with him after all, leaving behind her mother, any semblance of a career and everything she ever knew back in Roswell.

Just my 0.2 cents.
Last edited by girl afraid on Fri Jan 16, 2009 10:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Was Michael Abusive?

Post by nibbles2 » Fri Jan 16, 2009 10:42 am

girl afraid wrote:nibbles and xmag have already said everything I wanted to, I wholeheartedly agree with both of them.
What I like about candies is that we don't spilt into the Maria camp or the Michael camp and take sides against each other. We see the relationship as a whole and forgive and understand both characters for their flaws. Dreamers don't seem to be able to do that and even stargazers tend to be polarised into two opposing camps.
This is true for the most part, although I find myself in pro-Maria camp a lot, due only to defending her actions against non-candies. She gets a much tougher deal in this fandom than Michael, who always gets a free pass because of his childhood, his alienness and the fact that he stayed for Maria. Nope, I love the guy to bits but he does not get a free pass from me. They both said and did shitty things, but no way do I sit back and watch Maria's entire character be defined by a couple of badly written scenes in season 3 while Michael comes off smelling like roses. They're both accountable but they are both genuinely good characters who loved each other, despite their constant ups and downs. If Michael is forgiven for his less than stellar actions in S1 & S2, then so should Maria be for S3. She left to be with him after all, leaving behind her mother, any semblance of a career and everything she ever knew back in Roswell.

Just my 0.2 cents.
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Re: Was Michael Abusive?

Post by xmag » Mon Jan 19, 2009 10:02 am

I know now that Michaell always be a god despite doing and saying what he did and said in many, many, many scenes (although I bet he wouldn't be treated this way if he looked like Dany DeVito :roll: ), while Maria will alway be bashed for doing what she did and saying what she said.

But it's true that among candies, there' s no pro-anti camp. Every candy accepts that both Michael and Maria did and said shitty things, and that they were equals in that area. As girlinacoma said, when it's out of the candy fandom, then it's all "Michael is a saint" (and such a handsome one, that helps overlooking the bad stuff) and "Maria is a selfish bitch".

That's how it is.

The annoying thing, is that it then became the stick for Maria haters to bash her with. 'What a bitch Maria is, Michael stayed on the planet for her and then she broke up with him.'

Ok, firstly, It was Michael's decision to stay. When he said he was going, she accepted that. She didn't ask him to stay. She didn't even call him a jerk for sleeping with her and then announcning that he was leaving the planet an hour later. He didn't stay for her. He stayed for himself because he loved her. But that shouldn't mean that Maria had to be with Michael for the rest of her life if it wasn't what she really wanted. Yet somehow, by staying on earth, Michael got a free pass after jerking her around for two years.

I really, really don't want to get into a Liz V Maria thing here, because I love both girls. I'm not saying this to bash Liz. But most Maria haters are Liz fans (and vice-versa). They have no problem with Liz walking away from an emotionally fragile Max after he had been abducted and tortured. They completely overlook how cruel it was for Liz to pretend to sleep with Kyle in order to break Max's heart. But at the same time they declare that Maria is the queen bitch for what she did to Michael. Why is it ok to forgive and even beatify Liz for her dumb decisions yet continually bash Maria for hers?
I hadn't seen that part of your post but boy, is that true! Liz can walk away from Max, in Destiny, who had saved her life, exposed himself in the pilot, who had just been tortured and she is still loved. Maria does the same, she walks away from Michael who had stayed on Earth, doing something huge like Max did in the pilot, and bam, she gets to be the witch.

Why this double standard? I mean, Michael is labelled as a victim in season 3 while Maria did exactly what Michael did in season 1. He broke up with her, she did the same. She slept with him and was prepared to leave, he did the same in Departure. He was on this quest to find his parents in season 1, she was on this quest to find herself and her dreams (which was approved by Liz Parker herself!!!). But somehow, Maria gets bashed and hated for behaving... EXACTLY like Michael did. But Michael gets a free pass, while Maria doesn't.

Double standard.

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Re: Was Michael Abusive?

Post by Cocogurl » Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:42 pm

xmag wrote:
nibbles2 wrote:Maria was a young, emotionally fragile teenager who had been badly hurt by her father leaving when she was only a child. Being with somebody with even bigger emotional issues who was constantly being mean to her and dumping her whenever it got too intense wasn't a good relationship for her to be in. So I think it that sense it was abusive, althiugh I don't think that's the right word. But Michael wasn't doing it because he was mean or because he wanted to hurt her. Michael had the emotional intelligence of an egg and just genuinely wasn't able to handle the relationship. By the time he learned, Maria needed something else.

She had seen her friend lose his life because of the aliens, she saw Liz commit armed robbery, she had lost contact with all her other friends and had a good relationship with her mother all because of her involvement with the aliens. Taking time out from that to find herself was actually a pretty mature thing for her to do. I think it was something that was inevitable. It was impossible for the girls to stay in the alien abyss without taking a break from it. Liz had to get away too. Kyle and Jim wanted out of it too most of the time.

Yes it was shitty for Michael. But Maria didn't do it because Michael wasn't good enough for her.
Yes, exactly. Maria was on this quest to find herself in season 3, which was EXACTLY Michael had done in season 1. And Michael broke up with her because it was too intense and in the way of his search. Maria did the same thing so Michael and Maria were equal in that area.

So it wasn't that Michael wasn't good enough, it was that Maria needed to find herself.
So, then did you think it was right when Maria slept with Michael in season 3, told him that their lives were no longer linked, but then came running to him when she didn't get exactly what she wanted from her music career? I didn't think it was right at all. Nor did I think it was right whenever Michael treated her that way. I think Maria just did not know what she wanted at all. That's all I'm saying. But I'm not a Maria hater, nor am I a Michael hater. I think they were both great characters.

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Re: Was Michael Abusive?

Post by xmag » Wed Jan 21, 2009 6:37 am

So, then did you think it was right when Maria slept with Michael in season 3, told him that their lives were no longer linked, but then came running to him when she didn't get exactly what she wanted from her music career? I didn't think it was right at all. Nor did I think it was right whenever Michael treated her that way. I think Maria just did not know what she wanted at all. That's all I'm saying. But I'm not a Maria hater, nor am I a Michael hater. I think they were both great characters.
No, she wasn't right, just like it wasn't right from Michael to sleep with her in Departure without telling her that he was leaving two hours later. IMO, it's not that Maria didn't know what she wanted, it was that in Season 3, she realized that she was living, breathing Michael Guerin and that there was no room for Maria Deluca. She was being overshadowed by Michael. He had a strong personality (so imagine a girl with a weaker personality or someone even more doormat than Maria with Michael, he would have walked over her in less than hour) and Maria was like a doormat in the beginning of season 3. Paying the bills, paying the restaurant, coming third after his time with his Metachem buddies, Max, or alien problems. And when Michael was having fun and was happy, she had no one. No friend (Alex was dead, Liz was with Max searching for his son or trying to get their relationship on the right track, she had lost contact with her other friends), no family (Amy and Sean were nowhere to be found), nothing to do except be Michael's girlfriend.

So when Billy came, he reminded her that she used to be a girl with dreams and talent, and not just Michael's girlfriend. So she left Michael to go on this quest to find herself through her dreams. Because as Liz said, without dreams, she was becoming... who Liz was, a doormat as so many have called her.


But I find ironic that Maria "the doormat" is bashed for trying to exist, while Liz "the doormat" is celebrated for leaving her guy. Or that Maria is hated for leaving Michael in season 3 after everything he has done for her, while Liz is loved despite her leaving Max in Destiny after everything he has done for her. Maria didn't ask Michael to stay for her, and Liz didn't ask Max to take those risks for her in the pilot, but there's an obvious double standard in the way the girls are treated based on the same kind of decisions they have taken.


I personally think that Maria could and should have taken another decision, BASED ON WHAT WE SAW during the two previous years. She CHASED Michael, for god's sake, time and time again. She was crazy about him and out of the blue, the writers decide to have her break up with Michael. That's bad writing, that's fanfic. What should have happened is Maria talking to Michael about her being unhappy, about how she was missing music and how she wanted a break from the alien abyss, but not from Michael. She was a hippie's daughter, she could have gone to a retreat like the hippies do, to find some peace and answers. That would have fit Maria's personality and her upbringing.


So yeah, I think the writers just wrote a fanfic Maria in this episode, making her take a OOC decision for the sake of the plot, and without paying attention to the character's personality, which is something that I keep reading and reading over and over again in fics. There were other clever and in character ways to write a Maria plot in this season, but unfortunately, in season 3, many characters paid for the authors' inability to write for Roswell. Between the fanfic version of Maria, the fanatical and hysterical Michael wanting to kill every human who knew the truth (hey, nobody HATES him for wanting to kill the humans, how weird, but Maria breaking up with Michael? The girl is a bitch who isn't worthy of being Michael's girlfriend. While said girl was THE ONLY ONE wanting Michael ALIVE despite his crazyness, what a witch, that Maria, huh, to fight Liz's idea to kill Michael) , the singing wonder previously known as the sheriff, the wallpaper Kyle, Isabel and her out of the blue and stupid marriage to an older guy working for her father and less than 6 months after Alex's death, plus the excessive and out of the blue overpresent parents, only Max and Liz escaped the "what the hell?" feeling that goes with season 3 (minus Busted). I wouldn't have chosen that path for Max and Liz, back together so soon after everything that had happened, but in the end, they were treated good in that season. Not just because of all the screentime, but because their feelings and personalities (once again, minus Busted) were respected and explored.

The others, Maria included, weren't that lucky. As Nibbles said, one stupid and out of character Maria decision is the one remembered for those who hated Maria for... well, just existing or being the one that Michael loved, while everything good she had said and done was conveniently erased. Her staying in Roswell with a broken heart, after Destiny, but still taking care of Max? Forgotten. Her taking Michael in and risking having problems with her mother? Forgotten. Her deciding "to hell" with New York, after learning about Liz's sickness, and wanting to stay with her friend? Forgotten. Her leaving everything behind (career, mother, a safe future) when she wasn't on the FBI's list, or wasn't dying in Liz's vision? Forgotten. Her wanting Michael to live despite him being a walking bomb, and when Liz suggested killing him? Forgotten. I could go on but you see my point.



PS: maybe you don't know the "behind the scenes" leading to the M&M break up but let me tell you, it has nothing to do with Michael and Maria, and everything to do with the authors' stupidity. They realized, after MD went to tell them that she had nothing to do on the set, that they hadn't outlined a plot for Maria or M&M so what did they do? They copied BF and MD's private lives and MD's professional experience with musical companies. MD got a contract but she had to change her personality and her style? So did Maria. BF and MD broke up? So did Michael and Maria.

Unfortunately, I'm not kidding here, that's exactly how it happened.
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Re: Was Michael Abusive?

Post by Cocogurl » Wed Jan 21, 2009 6:14 pm

Well, I never hated Maria or Michael on Roswell because even though I'm a total dreamer, candy is a very close second for me. The only character I ever hated on Roswell was a certain blonde named Tess...but Pierce and Nasedo are also on the list. But we'll have to agree to disagree about Maria on season 3 because I don't agree with anything you said there.

Maria was NO WHERE even close to being a doormat in season 3. Maybe in the first 2 seasons, she was. But she definitely wasn't in season 3. In fact, she got everything that Liz didn't get after the whole FMax crap. She got to have her first time with the man that she loved and knew that he hadn't slept with anyone else, she got the man who chose HER over going home, and she got a man who was finally stepping up and trying to be better for her. Michael was working two jobs and trying to graduate highschool so he could give her more. So, I'm sorry, Maria was certainly not a doormat in season 3. Liz had Max, who was making it clear time and time again that she was not his priority--at least not until her life was in danger. That's when he finally cared about what was going on with her.

And there was only ONE time when Michael accidentally put his Metachem buddies before her. But come on, the guy is already working two jobs and trying to graduate for her, he has to stop having friends for her too. Even though this was the first time he'd ever allowed himself to have any real friends besides their tight, little circle. Does he have to stay attached to Maria's hip 24/7 for her to feel loved.

And the reason I say Maria didn't know what she wanted in season 3 isn't because she broke up with Michael. If she wanted to find herself, that's perfectly fine. Everyone has the period in their life when they just want to be alone for awhile to figure themselves out. But she shouldn't sleep with the poor guy who's been heartbroken since she left with, and then tell him that their lives aren't linked anymore. And what she did in the series finale when she got pissed that they weren't taking her along for the ride when leave Roswell. WTH? Didn't this girl just complain for months about how she wanted to be away from the alien chaos? And now she's pissed because they're respecting what she wants and are trying to keep her out of it? How is that fair? That was what told me that Maria had no clue what she wanted and was mostly just flitting from one thing to another.

I'm sorry, but I can agree with anyone who says that Michael treated Maria like crap for the first two seasons because he SERIOUSLY did. But Michael really tried to step up for Maria in season 3 and he's not getting the credit he deserves for that.

And also there is no double standard between Liz and Maria in my eyes. because neither of their situations were the same. In fact, Maria got it WAY easier than Liz throughout the whole series. We can't treat every single person's situation like it's the same because it's not.

And you accuse others of being Maria bashers, but aren't you kind of coming off as a Michael basher. Neither one of them were saints but I can't make Michael the bad guy in season 3 when he was anything but. And no, I haven't forgotten the episode where Michael threatened. But it was the one time he was being a jackass and it wasn't just because he was being a jackass--he was being influenced by that stupid seal.

Maria got her way throughout season 3. She wanted a better boyfriend, Michael was trying to be better, she wanted to break up so she could "find herself", she got that too, she wanted to sleep with Michael because she was happy about her demo deal, well she certainly got that, didn't she? And when she finally to decided that she wanted to be apart of the alien chaos again, she got that too. And the only reason I'm really disappointed in Maria for sleeping with Michael in Ch-ch-changes is because she should've remembered all the times that Michael had treated her bad and how it made her feel. She should've known better.

This turned into a longer rant than I thought it would be. :lol: Basically, I didn't like the way the writers made Maria in season 3. Seriously, if it was just about her finding herself, than that would've been fine and I would've been able to deal. But the fact that they made her character so freakin' wishy washy was what bugged me. And somehow Michael is faulted for that? It's not Michael's fault that Maria didn't know what she wanted, and I'm sorry, but that's exactly how it was.

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Re: Was Michael Abusive?

Post by xmag » Thu Jan 22, 2009 10:17 am

And you accuse others of being Maria bashers, but aren't you kind of coming off as a Michael basher.
I'll quote Girl afraid here :

This is true for the most part, although I find myself in pro-Maria camp a lot, due only to defending her actions against non-candies. She gets a much tougher deal in this fandom than Michael, who always gets a free pass because of his childhood, his alienness and the fact that he stayed for Maria. Nope, I love the guy to bits but he does not get a free pass from me. They both said and did shitty things, but no way do I sit back and watch Maria's entire character be defined by a couple of badly written scenes in season 3 while Michael comes off smelling like roses. They're both accountable but they are both genuinely good characters who loved each other, despite their constant ups and downs. If Michael is forgiven for his less than stellar actions in S1 & S2, then so should Maria be for S3.

****

I wasn't aiming at dreamers when I was defending Maria, but more "other fans", who use season 3 Maria, and only season 3 Maria, to say that she was an ungrateful b**** who didn't deserve Michael, so "another girl" was better for Michael (like, the same girl who suggested killing him in WDAMYK or who didn't want to enter the balance to save his life). Time and time again, we read that Maria is... not worthy of Michael. Of "God Michael", sorry.

As Girl afraid said, when we are between candies, there's no pro-Maria or pro-Michael camps. The candy fans just love them both and accept that they both said and did shitty things, Michael in season 1 & 2, Maria in season 3. But when we come here, we see "other fans" (not dreamers) just idolizing Michael and turning a blind eye to what he has said and done in season 1 & 2 and bashing Maria for season 3. So I, and others, come off as defending Maria and bashing Michael, but we just want to remind those who celebrate Michael and consider him as Maria's victim, that he didn't behave that well too. That it's not fair that HIS dreams, HIS problems, HIS childhood get to be used to defend him but that nobody put themselves in Maria's shoes to explain HER dreams and HER problems.
But the fact that they made her character so freakin' wishy washy was what bugged me.
Hence the "fanfic Maria", that's how I labelled her in my previous post. That Maria was like directly out of a fanfic.
And somehow Michael is faulted for that?
Remember how in season 1, Michael broke up with Maria because he was getting too intense because of Maria and he didn't want that, he had to be a stonewall? It's not that different from Maria being too into Michael and his life that she couldn't be who she wanted. Maria is considered "ungrateful" for that, but who blames Michael for doing the same to Maria in season 1? So if Michael is faulted for that, then so was Maria faulted by Michael in season 1. Hence the reason why candies, among them, don't hate one or another character, because for us, Michael and Maria were equals on the "hurt each other" scale.

It's not Michael's fault that Maria didn't know what she wanted, and I'm sorry, but that's exactly how it was.
She broke up with Michael, started writing and singing again after months of not doing anything musical, she sang in a club, joined Valenti's band, and had a contract in NY. I wouldn't say that she didn't know what she wanted. But she also still loved Michael. Love isn't a feeling that one can turn out like a tv or a radio. Hence Maria going to him, waiting for him and having sex with him. She shouldn't have. But she also was still in love with Michael. Hence the tragedy of that scene and of what came next. Just like Michael in Departure. He should have stopped Maria when she kissed him, to tell her that he was leaving, but he was a guy in love. Their paths are so similar, it's scary!

She realised what she wanted. But when her dreams turned to dust, she was lost. She came back lost. She didn't know what she wanted, that was right. But only after the NY debacle. Liz was great there, telling her what a friend only could tell her, to take a decision. That's where you can see that Maria needed Liz and that Liz was there for her. She didn't say much but she reached her target. Maria was lost and Liz gave her advices, advices which led Maria to see what mattered in her life.

And in the end, in Graduation, when she was faced between losing music and a normal life and losing Michael, she decided that Michael was much more important. And it's EXACTLY what Michael faced in Departure. He was ready to leave, realise his long-life dream but when he was faced, ultimately, with leaving, he chose to stay.

For us, candies, it only showed, once again, that Michael and Maria are the same and have lived the same kind of situations. Taken the same kind of decisions.

And also there is no double standard between Liz and Maria in my eyes. because neither of their situations were the same. In fact, Maria got it WAY easier than Liz throughout the whole series. We can't treat every single person's situation like it's the same because it's not.
Maybe but the end result was the same : Liz left Max, who was broken hearted and who didn't deserved being deserted at that point in his life, just like Maria left Michael who was also broken hearted and who didn't deserved being left like that. But many "other fans" will use that decision that Maria took to say that Michael deserved better. Liz came back after Destiny, just like Maria came back. They took impulsive decisions, not the brightest but in the end, they still loved their guys and they came back.
Even though this was the first time he'd ever allowed himself to have any real friends besides their tight, little circle. Does he have to stay attached to Maria's hip 24/7 for her to feel loved.
Hmm, Maria clearly said that she loved him happy. Even with his friends and her being an afterthought. Seeing Michael having fun, not worrying, being at ease in his life, made her realise that she was nowhere close to being there. Michael was happy because he had a purpose (graduating high school, preparing for the future), he had friends, he was having fun with them. Take Maria: what was her goal in life? She had none. Who were her friends? Liz, that's all. And she was busy with Max, and it was absolutely normal that she was, she had to rebuild her relationship with him. So, was she supposed to stay with Michael for his sake, even if she was like a shadow of who she used to be?

What sucked was the way the break up happened. Where was the foreshadowing (apart from seeing her so resigned when she had that date with Michael and seeing him so happy when she was... just there, no spark, no fire), where was the writing explaining why she was feeling that way? It was no where. The writing in that season was far from stellar.
But she shouldn't sleep with the poor guy who's been heartbroken since she left with, and then tell him that their lives aren't linked anymore.
And Michael shouldn't sleep with a girl who is so in love with him, only to tell her afterwards: "I'm leaving the planet forever in two hours". Once again, we view that as equality. I wasn't that fond of Michael not telling Maria that he was leaving. I accepted that he had his reasons, that he was just a teenager, that he didn't know how to act. The same applies to Maria. She was happy, she had waited for hours for Michael to come back and they had sex. It wasn't right.


That's what girl afraid was saying: Maria's behavior and actions are... what's the correct word? Okay, can't find it. Maybe over analysed, but against her? but when it comes to Michael, it's just "he did bad things in season 1 & 2, okay, but...". His bad behavior in the past is resumed in one or two lines and forgotten, but Maria's behavior in season 3 is used many times against her.

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Re: Was Michael Abusive?

Post by Cocogurl » Thu Jan 22, 2009 8:14 pm

Like I said, we'll just have to agree to disagree. Just want to make it clear once again that I'm not a Maria basher at all. When it comes to candy, I only defend on character when it seems like the other character is getting off too easy. And I especially defend Michael in season 3 because it was the first time in the series where I really got Maria's attraction to Michael because he first two seasons, I couldn't see it at all why she would let herself be treated like that. So, I haven't forgotten the things Michael did in seasons 1 & 2, nor am I giving him excuses at all. I just can't really call him abusive because I've been around abusive people before, and Michael is definitely not an abusive person.

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Re: Was Michael Abusive?

Post by girl afraid » Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:23 am

Cocogurl wrote:I just can't really call him abusive because I've been around abusive people before, and Michael is definitely not an abusive person.
I agree with this.

In the end, the ones I'm most annoyed with are the idiot writers who did their best to destroy both Maria's character and those of the others. Whichever writer came up with the bright idea to copy Brendan and Majandra's real life situation for M&M needs to have their head checked.
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Re: Was Michael Abusive?

Post by Cocogurl » Mon Apr 13, 2009 3:04 am

girl afraid wrote:
Cocogurl wrote:I just can't really call him abusive because I've been around abusive people before, and Michael is definitely not an abusive person.
I agree with this.

In the end, the ones I'm most annoyed with are the idiot writers who did their best to destroy both Maria's character and those of the others. Whichever writer came up with the bright idea to copy Brendan and Majandra's real life situation for M&M needs to have their head checked.
I agree with you completely. :D

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