Bad Dreamer moments, Tess's Appearances

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Re: Bad Dreamer moments, Tess's Appearances

Postby Coccy » Sun Jan 04, 2009 9:19 am

vilandragirl wrote:But the fact still remains that Liz and Max made their own choices. No one else can be blamed for the things that went wrong with their relationship.


of course.
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Re:

Postby CandyDreamQueen » Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:18 am

Coccy wrote:why Max and Tess fans are called rebels is a mistery for me.. :| :roll: sorry but really I don't find why they are called like that

where is the rebellion? :roll: ^^°°°°
They have to do what a book say, the normality..what it's established.
they were together in a past life and they must be together in the present.
normal administration.

Where is the challenge? They are just like some people and couples in reality. In our world there are so much people that are married just cos they are used to be together but they aren't in love.

Max and Liz *are* rebels! Remember "what so great about normal?" an human girl and an alien boy that aren't destined to be together but they refuse normality and destiny. They are different but they want to be together. For love they defy LIFE and DEATH and in the end they won.
That's a rebellion!


Wow, I never thought about that but it is a really good point. lol :lol:

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Re: Re:

Postby Cocogurl » Thu Jan 15, 2009 6:06 am

CandyDreamQueen wrote:
Coccy wrote:why Max and Tess fans are called rebels is a mistery for me.. :| :roll: sorry but really I don't find why they are called like that

where is the rebellion? :roll: ^^°°°°
They have to do what a book say, the normality..what it's established.
they were together in a past life and they must be together in the present.
normal administration.

Where is the challenge? They are just like some people and couples in reality. In our world there are so much people that are married just cos they are used to be together but they aren't in love.

Max and Liz *are* rebels! Remember "what so great about normal?" an human girl and an alien boy that aren't destined to be together but they refuse normality and destiny. They are different but they want to be together. For love they defy LIFE and DEATH and in the end they won.
That's a rebellion!


Wow, I never thought about that but it is a really good point. lol :lol:

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Max and Tess are considered rebel because they against what was established in the very first episode: Max and Liz being soulmates.

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Re: Bad Dreamer moments, Tess's Appearances

Postby Coccy » Thu Jan 15, 2009 7:49 am

yeah it's about the fans not the couple. it's a shipper name not based on the couple itself, unlike the others
basically their fans call their self rebels because they' "rebel" against the main couple and against... Max's feelings :shock: they rebel against love and free will.



then the "pair" is everything but rebel because they're one of the most forced couples ever written and they have to be together just because they're programmed like that.
in the end they had no reason to be together because even "biologically" they don't work since their son was totally human and not the alien heir the antarians most likely needed from them.
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Even if my molecules were spread out from here to whatever galaxy my home planet is in,
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Re: Bad Dreamer moments, Tess's Appearances

Postby nibbles2 » Thu Jan 15, 2009 8:41 pm

I find this really interesting.

Coccy wrote: they rebel against love and free will.

then the "pair" is everything but rebel because they're one of the most forced couples ever written and they have to be together just because they're programmed like that.


If I may ask a (slightly OT) question about this.

Max and Liz's relationship was based on love and free will, in complete contrast to his relationship with Tess which was forced and programmed. On numerous occassions Max made a point of turning his back on destiny and chosing Liz. That's what I loved about Max. (I've always found it ironic that the person who made the most noise about Tess and Max belonging together was actually Liz. :lol: )

So given that Max and Liz is about love and free will and Max and Tess is about destiny and programming - why do so many dreamer fics revolve around the notion of Max and Liz being destined, prophesised, reborn to be with each other? There are dozens of fics where it's revealed that Liz was Max's lover on Antar and she was recreated under the same process as the aliens and implanted in Nancy Parker so that she and Max could find each other again. I get that the idea of soulmates is romantic. But is that not the very same thing as Max and Tess being programmed to be with each other? Does it not fly in the face of what is so great about Max and Liz? They're not exactly star-crossed lovers if they were genetically programmed to fall in love with each other. To me, it diminishes their love because really, how do you know that they're actually in love and not just programmed to act that way? Do they really like staring into each others eyes or is it something they've been programmed to do?

A lot of fics also have Max and Liz going into heat so that they'll make love and procreate.

Again to me, this is very unromantic. Are they really in love and attracted to each other or is their cells just fullfilling their biological process? How can anybody find these 'heats' sexy and romantic? It's not about desire and attraction, it's a process, like breathing and eating and and all other bodily functions. They are reduced to the same level as most other animals who commit sexual acts with each other, not because of affection and attraction but because they are biologically driven to perform that function at a certain time of year. Just like the migrate or hibernate or whatever.

I don't ship dreamers, but I do love Max and Liz (does that make sense?) so it's always been bizarre to me that so many dreamers write fics that contravene the best thing about Max and Liz. That they rebelled against biology, destiny, and everything else and fell in love with each other.

If Max and Liz are really about free will and love, then why do so many dreamers want them to be 'programmed' together?

(I realise that was completly off topic. Apologies.)

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Re: Bad Dreamer moments, Tess's Appearances

Postby Cocogurl » Thu Jan 15, 2009 9:23 pm

nibbles2 wrote:I find this really interesting.

Coccy wrote: they rebel against love and free will.

then the "pair" is everything but rebel because they're one of the most forced couples ever written and they have to be together just because they're programmed like that.


If I may ask a (slightly OT) question about this.

Max and Liz's relationship was based on love and free will, in complete contrast to his relationship with Tess which was forced and programmed. On numerous occassions Max made a point of turning his back on destiny and chosing Liz. That's what I loved about Max. (I've always found it ironic that the person who made the most noise about Tess and Max belonging together was actually Liz. :lol: )

So given that Max and Liz is about love and free will and Max and Tess is about destiny and programming - why do so many dreamer fics revolve around the notion of Max and Liz being destined, prophesised, reborn to be with each other? There are dozens of fics where it's revealed that Liz was Max's lover on Antar and she was recreated under the same process as the aliens and implanted in Nancy Parker so that she and Max could find each other again. I get that the idea of soulmates is romantic. But is that not the very same thing as Max and Tess being programmed to be with each other? Does it not fly in the face of what is so great about Max and Liz? They're not exactly star-crossed lovers if they were genetically programmed to fall in love with each other. To me, it diminishes their love because really, how do you know that they're actually in love and not just programmed to act that way? Do they really like staring into each others eyes or is it something they've been programmed to do?

A lot of fics also have Max and Liz going into heat so that they'll make love and procreate.

Again to me, this is very unromantic. Are they really in love and attracted to each other or is their cells just fullfilling their biological process? How can anybody find these 'heats' sexy and romantic? It's not about desire and attraction, it's a process, like breathing and eating and and all other bodily functions. They are reduced to the same level as most other animals who commit sexual acts with each other, not because of affection and attraction but because they are biologically driven to perform that function at a certain time of year. Just like the migrate or hibernate or whatever.

I don't ship dreamers, but I do love Max and Liz (does that make sense?) so it's always been bizarre to me that so many dreamers write fics that contravene the best thing about Max and Liz. That they rebelled against biology, destiny, and everything else and fell in love with each other.

If Max and Liz are really about free will and love, then why do so many dreamers want them to be 'programmed' together?

(I realise that was completly off topic. Apologies.)


You've actually brought very interesting question, one that I've never even thought about--especially since I'm currently writing a fic where Max meets Liz on Antar. :oops: :lol:

I guess it feels a little different for me. Like with Max and Tess, it felt more like they were programmed to be together, not really because of that stupid destiny book, but more because if it was more than just programming and they were really soulmates, than Max's soul would've instantly recognized Tess's and he would've fallen in love with her all over again.

And when I think about if Max and Liz had fallen in love with each other on Antar. I think of like this love that goes beyond time and even death. And whenever Max sees her on earth, he doesn't see someone he's SUPPOSED to be with 'cause a book told him too. His soul recognizes hers and he knows that she's the love of his life. I know, I'm such a freakin' sap for romance. :lol: I can't help it.

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Re: Bad Dreamer moments, Tess's Appearances

Postby Coccy » Fri Jan 16, 2009 5:50 am

nibbles2 wrote:I find this really interesting.

If I may ask a (slightly OT) question about this.

Max and Liz's relationship was based on love and free will, in complete contrast to his relationship with Tess which was forced and programmed. On numerous occassions Max made a point of turning his back on destiny and chosing Liz. That's what I loved about Max. (I've always found it ironic that the person who made the most noise about Tess and Max belonging together was actually Liz. :lol: )

So given that Max and Liz is about love and free will and Max and Tess is about destiny and programming - why do so many dreamer fics revolve around the notion of Max and Liz being destined, prophesised, reborn to be with each other?





whoa you're calling us hypocritical :lol: :lol:

why do some Candy fics revolve around the notion of Michael and Maria being sweet and romantic with Michael as Max's clone (= perfect boyfriend and sensitive) even if many candies loved him because he was the opposite of Max too and not the perfect boyfriend? :lol:

not everything is black or white you know. :wink:


There are dozens of fics where it's revealed that Liz was Max's lover on Antar and she was recreated under the same process as the aliens and implanted in Nancy Parker so that she and Max could find each other again. I get that the idea of soulmates is romantic. But is that not the very same thing as Max and Tess being programmed to be with each other? Does it not fly in the face of what is so great about Max and Liz? They're not exactly star-crossed lovers if they were genetically programmed to fall in love with each other. To me, it diminishes their love because really, how do you know that they're actually in love and not just programmed to act that way? Do they really like staring into each others eyes or is it something they've been programmed to do?


it's not the same thing and i believe that into a way Cocogurl already answered.
the thing is that with M&L the "destined love" could make more sense because they're really soulmates and Max recognized her as the half of his soul from the very beginning. they really love each other and NOT because someone told them to love each other. this is the big difference
it's not programmed. a past life storyline with them (and i personally don't like the genre very much) would make sense because of the relationship they shared and their transcendent connection. because of the way they were developed in the show too.
the past life would be a plus but not the only reason of why they should be together. it would be a bit like what happened with FMax. M&L married into both "lifetimes" even if someone tried to change their future. It didn't happen because they were forced but because they always loved each other and an alternative universe can't change the fact that they're always still soulmates.

The same thing never happened with Tess. they were really artificially programmed to be together like Michael and Isabel but they didn't share a natural bond nor they recognized each other as soulmates. they weren't soulmates. big difference.
Max recognized and missed Michael when he wasn't with him while he totally forgot about Tess for 10 years and she had to mindwarp him in order to make him understand who the heck she was. (and not only Max. Michael and Isabel didn't remember her too)

the very big difference is also the whole concept of "destiny" the way they developed it in the show.
because we're forgetting that in roswell the word "destiny" was used improperly. what we call destiny in roswell is not the real destiny and not even fate.

so it's NOT that that past life lovers and destiny does automatically mean that a couple is forced
what made M&T forced and against free will is not "destiny" itself but *the way* it was developed with them, with their specific example. how it was based *only* on that. and with them it wasn't real destiny and the real meant to be because they missed fundamental things that could make their relationship not only believable but real, genuine, natural, spontaneous.. no matter if their alien donors were together or not.
for them it wasn't just a plus it was the only reason of why they had to be together.
they weren't in love with each other and they didn't know each other. they were forced to be together not because they loved each other in the other life AND into this life too but because someone established that they had to be together and because Nacedo made a deal with Kivar and needed Tess pregnant with Max's son.
Tess was a duty for Max. it seemed that he couldn't be the king if she couldn't jump into his pants. Even for their fans Max is selfish because he follows his feelings when he MUST be with Tess at any cost for only God knows (now) what's the real reason since their union was useless for the group and antar and the real needed thing was her help as one of the royal four. not to mention that she almost killed him and his family.
where's the love? it's when the whole concept of past lovers stop to be romantic and it's transformed into another totally different thing.
then add that Max was in love with someone else. someone whom he really shared a connection. the connection he should have shared with his programmed mate.

with Max and Liz fated was surely involved and maybe destiny too.
But the difference is that it was the real fate and it gave them the pen with the promise of a possible result but they were the ones who wrote the story.
Can you see the difference here? Because it'd undeniable. again, love is huge key.
love is the only thing that can't be programmed and it's what can make everything different.



anyway, i don't remember a dreamer ff where they were genetically programmed to be together and they are together just for this reason :? , however. they surely exist but i bet that Max and Liz are in love with each other into those ff too and they feel connected to each other. and this alone make them totally different compared to the whole concept around M&T- especially if they don't want to kill each other ^^"
again, love is the key of everything. then the author can find his/her way to explain what in the show wasn't explained. every example is different.

i remember many dreamer ff based on the prophecy that the writers did cut from Max in the city when Ava told Liz
A once fallen king shall rise again and bring his bride back to life.
that is what happened with Max and Liz. and notice the prophecy talked about a bride not a past life wife.
a bride. the woman who is about to marry him
and honestly that's the idea that i like more. The idea that Zan (even if for me Max is not really Zan but more like his heir) found through Max his soulmate, true love and bride into another world, another time and another species.


A lot of fics also have Max and Liz going into heat so that they'll make love and procreate.

Again to me, this is very unromantic. Are they really in love and attracted to each other or is their cells just fullfilling their biological process? How can anybody find these 'heats' sexy and romantic? It's not about desire and attraction, it's a process, like breathing and eating and and all other bodily functions. They are reduced to the same level as most other animals who commit sexual acts with each other, not because of affection and attraction but because they are biologically driven to perform that function at a certain time of year. Just like the migrate or hibernate or whatever.


you want to put everyone and every story in the same box.
you make it seems that all the dreamers share this opinion while it isn't even true. you should make this specific criticize to the specific authors not to all the group of the dreamers especially the ones who can't even understand what you're talking about since they never read this kind of ff or maybe they didn't get your same interpretation. you should ask the authors and they could explain you their opinion. i don't think that they would kill you or something :lol:


sorry if i can sound rude but i'm starting to feel annoyed by how people always accuse ALL the dreamers of things that, above all, all the shippers do not just them. into a way or another we always have to justify our "actions" and why we like this or this. it's getting really boring not to mention hypocritical.

i made you an example,some candies hate Max but they transform Michael into Max. but i don't post into your board saying that all of you are the same asking why you're hypocritical.
all the people are different
maybe because i don't think that a sweet Michael is automatically always a Max's clone and the candy who wrote Michael like that hated the way Max was with Liz .
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Even if my molecules were spread out from here to whatever galaxy my home planet is in,
that wouldn't stop me. All my molecules would be like little homing pigeons.
They'd all zoom to you, and then I'd re-form." - Max Evans; Roswell High - The Watcher
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Re: Bad Dreamer moments, Tess's Appearances

Postby Kachie » Mon Mar 23, 2009 11:51 am

A lot of these posts were very interesting to read. . . Even though I have enjoyed the fandom that somehow connects Liz to Antar, whether through a past life or being somewhat alien herself, part of what truly made Roswell, at least the first season, so special was the idea of this great love between a human and an alien. She is the first to find out and she not only accepts the truth of what they are, but also falls in love with him. As Max put it, they saw into each other's souls. Yes, fics that bring in a whole pre-destined thing can definitely be intriguing. . . but I feel it somehow takes away from the, I dunno, pure aspect of their connection.

As for Season 2. . .the thing is, up until the end of Prom, I kind of liked it. Yes, Liz and Max were apart, it was angsty. . . but they're the main couple and unfortunately, tension and angst must occur for them. I liked the seemingly reformed Tess, it seemed she was gaining a place in their group. . . but then the writers just completely messed with all their characters. Whenever Tess magically appeared, it did feel forced, almost appearing like she was stualking them. A lot of the interactions in Roswell always did feel nice and natural, but whenever Tess had her "evil" moments, you could literally feel the writers forcing her in there. I don't know if that makes any sense, but it's just that the Tess character had so much potential to be more than the bitch who rips Gidget and Moondoggy apart. . and they just let it fall flat.
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Re: Bad Dreamer moments, Tess's Appearances

Postby Tears_of_Mercury » Wed Mar 25, 2009 7:53 pm

nibbles2 wrote:IMax and Liz's relationship was based on love and free will, in complete contrast to his relationship with Tess which was forced and programmed. On numerous occassions Max made a point of turning his back on destiny and chosing Liz. That's what I loved about Max. (I've always found it ironic that the person who made the most noise about Tess and Max belonging together was actually Liz. :lol: )


Teehee. Liz bought into it more than anyone else, certainly. And as much as that might be understandable, it also just completely boggles when you compare her reaction to Maria's - Maria, who was abandoned by her father at a young age, who was [arguably] the more insecure of the two, and who had not an odd-man-out, vehemently rejected alien to go up against but someone whom Michael had known and identified with for his entire life (existence, even). I'm not saying comparing the girls is necessarily a good idea... but even as a hardcore Liz fan, I will admit that seeing it in print makes it all seem a bit redonkulous. :lol:

As for your fic question - yeah, there are quite a few fics like that. Some are outstanding. Some are readable the first time through but not exactly top notch. And then some of them... well. I honestly couldn't tell you why that type of ff is so popular, except maybe some dreamers feel like we as a sub-fandom have something to prove. Despite being the flagship couple, Max and Liz drew a lot of haters, as well as a lot of indifferent Candies and Stargazers who really just wanted more focus on their couple. So by making our ship somehow destined from the start, it maybe... elevates them? It's kind of an easy way for writers to insert their opinion that no other couple is ever going to touch Max and Liz. I also think that a lot of the original past life dreamer ffs probably came out after season one, or maybe even after Four Square/Destiny spoilers leaked. Then it wasn't so much people thinking through things in detail as mourning for their ship.

There's also the fact that with the way Departure was written, to some viewers it came across a lot like Liz was a distant second that Max took because his first option didn't pan out. Obviously it's not the most rational stance to take, but some parts of season three would seem to support it. So to prove that it was always going to be them, and even go so far as to cancel out Tess's involvment completely, is probably a bit of an escapist route for some who'd just like to ignore the whole mess.

But really, I don't know. I haven't written a pod Liz fic as of now, I can't vouch for why someone would write it, and apart from the rare one that has that epic 'love across lifetimes' feel practically jumping out of my computer screen, I'm not sure why [some] dreamers enjoy it so much, either. Uhm... maybe for the hot animalistic smut? :?

I don't ship dreamers, but I do love Max and Liz (does that make sense?) so it's always been bizarre to me that so many dreamers write fics that contravene the best thing about Max and Liz. That they rebelled against biology, destiny, and everything else and fell in love with each other.


I *think* I understand... is it that you love the couple, but just never went crazy shipping them? Or was it more of you loving the idea of them and even loving the characters but never feeling any special spark while watching them? LoL, I'm such a doofus. Don't mind my in-depth interrogation. :oops:



Anyhoo, carry on, thread! Sorry for the return to OT-ness.

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Re: Bad Dreamer moments, Tess's Appearances

Postby ADreamerDestiny » Wed Apr 01, 2009 11:21 pm

So given that Max and Liz is about love and free will and Max and Tess is about destiny and programming - why do so many dreamer fics revolve around the notion of Max and Liz being destined, prophesised, reborn to be with each other?


Honestly, here's my opinion as a Dreamer. I think it revolves around personal interpretations and expectations.

Speaking for myself - I was also a fan that enjoyed the original premise of the ML relationship very much. Which was the love story of an alien boy and a human girl falling in love - in spite of their differences. However, with that said, I happen to favor Max/Liz being destined, prophesised, or reborn in order to be together again too. I like the idea of reincarnation and "souls" reconnecting from another life. After the introduction of Tess into the show and as Roswell progressed, my storyline expectations shifted into another direction. This change connected back into my whole interpretation of ML because of the new introduction in storyline material involving the concept of "past-lives" and "destiny."

An instantaneous recognition, a connection coming from their childhood, was provided for ML in the Pilot; therefore, we were meant to know from the start that Max and Liz went much deeper than your average, run-of-the-mill, high school relationship. This wasn't just suppose to be some extended lifetime "crush" carried from Max's end until high school. Yes, ML were built-up romantically - but comparable to soul-mates.

Now, the foundation for MT constrasted against the soul-mate premise - these two characters (Max/Tess) clashed and were at odds with each other from the very beginning. They just didn't fit together and the writing never made any point of hiding that fact. Therefore, it made perfect sense to me at the time for Tess to be revealed as some type of "imposter" down the road in the bride/destiny storyline connecting into Max's character - especially when those particular storyline concepts (destiny; past-lives) were pushed. Yes, Tess kept pushing the idea of destiny on Max; however, destiny wasn't the problem for me. To me, destiny is just something that is ultimately meant to be - Max and Liz were presented/written in that exact light.

Therefore, if ML were together on Antar in a past life, it's not a stretch for me to imagine or believe that the Antarians could have been a highly advanced spiritual race of people who merely assisted through biology/genetics or other technological means to put into place what they already knew was meant to be. If ML truly were together in a past life, the aliens could have ultimately known that a natural pull would bring them together in the next one - it wouldn't be forced by them but through ML's own free-will. MT on the other hand weren't "destiny" because "nothing" was going to ultimately bring and keep them together - not their souls, not biology, not the Antarians involvement - NOTHING! That is exactly how they were written and presented on the show. Max's will was clashing against Tess; the same thing didn't happen with ML so MT felt unnatural to me. Max eventually relented and allowed himself to go to Tess but only after he felt like he had no other choices left - he almost felt forced into accepting it. That is not destiny - unlike ML who both wanted to be together but obstacles just stood in their path.

Sometimes free-will and destiny walk hand-in-hand. Programming only works if it is truly meant to be. :D
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