Who loves who more?? Max or Liz?? and why do you think so??

Love Max & Liz? Then the Dreamer place is where you want to be.

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Cocogurl
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Re: Who loves who more?? Max or Liz?? and why do you think so??

Post by Cocogurl » Fri Sep 05, 2008 5:27 am

I can actually agree with a couple of things that have been said

For starters you're very right about Max not know the truth about FMax, and he shouldn't persecuted for something he didn't even know about and couldn't control. And believe it or not, I really don't care about the fact that Max slept with Tess. I did when I first saw the episode, but after awhile I realized that from Max's side, he did nothing wrong when he slept with Tess. He wasn't cheating on Liz because they weren't together. And I actually do agree with what you said about Liz at the end of Heart Of Mine. If you look at it from a viewers POV, it did seem like she had finally given up on them. And the same can also be said about Max when kissed Tess at the prom. I think that there, they both might have given up on each other for a little bit there. And if you look at it from Max's side of things, it really does look like he was the victim in season, but that's pretty much all I'm hearing--Max's POV. Some of you guys rarely bring up anything that Liz went through.

Like when we talk about how Liz abandoned Max at the end of Destiny, Max also let Liz down when he didn't believe her about Alex. She did try to make him apart of the investigation. She asked him if he believed her about Alex, but he said no. By saying that, he made it clear that he wasn't going to help her and that she was on her own. And yes, maybe Max wasn't thinking logical at the time, and no, I don't always think logically all the time either. But here's the problem. Whenever Max does start being "logical" and realizes that he was wrong, he usually only realizes it when it's almost too late for him to repair the damage that he caused. Like in Departure, he only finally excepted the truth when he had to leave for his home planet, that's not the same as believing in a friend. Or in Control when he didn't call and almost left the planet without telling her. Yeah, he may have been "driving all night" to get back to her, but that was only after he realized that his ship didn't work and his relationship with Liz was almost completely destroyed, and the episode Ch-ch-changes is the one that gets me the most. It took green sparks shooting out Liz's hands and the possibility that those changes could kill her that finally made Max really stop and notice her again. So, does Liz's life have to be endanger every single week to keep Max at least even a tiny bit interested in her life or her needs?

And as much I do love Max and appreciate his POV, I do believe that Most of Liz's decisions,especially in season 2, were more selfless than Max's. And before I continue this, yes, I know that Max didn't know about FMax, and I'm not at all blaming him for anything that happened EOTW or some of the episodes that came after it, because he had every right to be hurt. I'm just saying that right or wrong, Liz did what she had to do protect Max and the world. In fact, most of Liz's life since she found out the truth has been about sacrifice and putting the aliens above almost everything else in her life. So, I can't call Liz selfish or wrong in ITLAITB when she finally STOPPED making them her first priority and did what she had to do to find who killed Alex. Because Alex was such a wonderful person who was also always there for the aliens. He deserved to have someone fight for the truth instead of just ignoring the truth because it might too hard or too painful. And if had been Isabel or Michael who had died instead, Max would've acted exactly like Liz, and I bet no one would've even said a thing. In fact that probably would've just given Max more excuses to act the way he did.

I've heard so many people come up with their own conclusions of who was right and who was wrong or who went through more pain than the other and it's not that black and white. Like when some people think that what Liz went through in season 2 than what Max went through because she knew what Max didn't know. I don't think that's entirely true. Maybe in fact her knowing the truth is what made it harder. 'Cause what Max went through, as hard as it was, maybe it's also a little bit easier to play the martyr when you don't know the whole truth. Maybe it's easy be hurt and angry with someone when you DON'T know what that person did for you. But can Liz say anything when he tells her that he can't be friends with her, or he treats her like crap? No, she can't. And it's not like she can be mad at him for it either because once again, he doesn't know what she knows. It's same thing when people say that what Liz went through was harder. Everyone has their own opinion about which is harder, so I don't know if, as a viewer, can honestly say which one is harder. This is Roswell. None of us has ever been through anything like that nor will we ever.

To put it simply, I am NOT anti-Max. I love the character of Max very much and I don't expect him to be perfect. But I don't expect Liz to be either. And I hear more people bring up all of Liz's mistakes and it's like Max always gets this get out of jail free card and I don't think it's fair for either of them, but that's why I defend Liz a little bit more than Max. I think her POV is just as important as Max's.

And I also can't really argue about who love who more because you can tell that despite all of their mistakes, they both loved each other more than words can say. They were both just too young people who were forced to deal with more than anybody has had to deal with.

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Re: Who loves who more?? Max or Liz?? and why do you think so??

Post by Coccy » Fri Sep 05, 2008 5:54 am

Sin wrote: I understand that. He thought that she didn't love him. Understandable. I just thought his love for her would keep him from being able to move forward and make a life with Tess which is what he was going to do.

and why?
what? he should await forever? he should become a priest or what? come on!
and, again:
1) he didn't sleep with Tess nor he ever tried to start a relationship with her just because Liz didn't want him. otherwise he had all the time to do it.
Max did await Liz for a whole year! what you wanted more?
2) it wasn't just Liz his problem. He felt that he did lose everything, even her friendship, even her trust, even her care! Like if *she* saw him as the responsible of Alex's death. Then add that Max felt forced to make a choice between what he really wanted and what he had to be.
They told him that he was not only the leader but a king and Tess was his supposed wife. it was told him that his life and what he wanted wasn't true. it was told him that he was dreaming and he had to wake up because earth wasn't home, he wasn't human. he had to give up and accept his destiny
it was so much more than what you said!!!

you wanted from him way too much. you wanted from him something that is unreasonable for every human being!

Max was really into a bad state. lets see (i try):
- he loved this woman for 10 years of his life without ever getting the chance to transform his dream into something real because for him he was a monster and Liz could have never loved him back. One day this woman is in danger and without thinking twice he saved her life. That day his life both ended and began
because he payed his good action. He payed it with Michael and Isabel who criticized his choice because he did put all of them in danger for Liz, and it was true because he basically destroyed their cover. he payed it because he became the mean alien killer and they (FBI, Valenti) put on his shoulders the responsibility of the deaths of all those people that Nacedo killed.
In the end he finally got the chance to be happy and loved by that woman he saved because Liz loved him back with all her heart, she didn't care about the danger, she didn't care about normal, she didn't see him like a freak. she saw him like a person and loved him for who he really was and not who he could be or he could do. But then one day someone (Tess) came to roswell and told him that they were like robots programmed to be together. So they were not only aliens and "different" but they weren't even real children conceived by someone in the natural way. they were assembled and manipulated in order to mate with each other. He didn't even get the time to understand what was happening because Pierce captured him and tortured him into a way that honestly is really inhuman and it's something that NO ONE in roswell ever lived. they tortured him both physically and psychologically, they almost opened/operated him alive in order to get answers that he couldn't even give! they used him like if he was nothing more than a mouse used for experiments. they drugged him, they used electroshock. they blackmailed him making him see Liz's death.
This thing alone is not a small detail. this is something that changed him forever. He will never heal from it and it doesn't help that he didn't really get the time and space in the show in order to really get over it.
In W Las Vegas Michael accused Max of not healing him inside but no one healed Max inside after this nightmare and it's not that Max tried to ask for help, it seemed that his problems were only his while he had to resolve the others' problems.
Anyway, right after what happened with Pierce he saw this momogram where not only they told him that he really was "programmed" , he was a king, Tess was his wife, Michael the second in command, and Isabel the princess. together they were supposed to save a planet! with what and how they could do it is still a mystery for me! He didn't even get the time to get over it that Liz, the woman he loved, left him because he had a destiny and she didn't feel a part of it.
you accuse Max of losing his faith but it happened to Liz too! She made the decision for both of them and she left him when he needed her the most.
But Max didn't fault her for her. he was awaiting, he was hoping and he was trying to be the leader he was supposed to be.
he tried to move into Liz's direction. he tried to make her understand that no matter what he wanted to be with her and he didn't care about his destiny with Tess. he felt nothing for her. then in teotw he even tried to get her attention singing for her. But it didn't work. Liz told him that they couldn't be together.
She told him that she didn't want to die for him, that she wanted to fall in love with a normal guy, that she wanted safety. something that Max couldn't give her. But Max didn't give up and he still hoped, he wasn't angry with her. but in the end he saw her in bed with Kyle! and then she confirmed it (because even if he saw it with his own eyes he still didn't want to believe it)
this was not his Liz! this wasn't the Liz he fell in love with! She wasn't. all the things that she always told him, all the things she did for him.. it seemed for him that they were fake like if he believed into something that wasn't real
In season 2 he tried his best. He still had hopes for them. even when Liz hurt him into this way he didn't give up and it's not that he started a relationship with Tess. Even in Max in the city when he was angry with Liz and he was alone with Tess nothing happened between them. he started to accept her as a part of the group, as someone like Michael and Isabel, but his feelings for Liz didn't change.
But with the time he started to forgive her about Kyle because he basically understood that after all she was right. She had everything to lose with him. he couldn't give her "normal" nor safety and what happened in that season proved it to him even more.
See the scene from "we're a family" he felt that with him she couldn't even grow. She wanted to travel like Alex but he couldn't give it to her.
IMO he started to understand why she slept with Kyle and why she didn't want him anymore. She basically confirmed him something that he already knew: he was different, she was human. they couldn't be together.
I believe that the more Liz pushed him away the more he started to give up about destiny. why still fight for something that only Max wanted? why still fight when everything told him that it was more easy for everyone if he gave up about destiny and started to be what it was his duty to be?

see, it was much more than just Liz and her love. When Liz accused him of being responsible of Alex's death (after he wasn't able to bring him back to life) it was like the last thing that made him explode. The ultimate proof that for his fault they couldn't have normal, for his fault, for his "dreams", they were all in danger and Alex died. He really was that monster, why still dream about something that wasn't real anymore?
and with him there was Tess. Tess seemed to have all the answers. Tess seemed to offer him something real. she never stopped to remember him that he had to be Zan and their home wasn't earth. Add that she gave him memories about antar where they loved each other.
it was just too late and too bad for Max to still fight. he was a mess. he couldn't. he had nothing.

again, Max couldn't know the truth about Liz. He was living his alternative reality. His Liz wasn't the real one. If he had know then we couldn't be here talking about what happened because there's no way he could sleep with Tess
how he could believe in Liz and their love when his Liz wasn't the real one and their love was destroyed?

he said it in the harvest. it was like if everything he believed she was and they were in season 1 was an illusion. because of her words and her actions.
Max gave her another chance but it was too late and he couldn't know the truth. even in W Las Vegas when he got that flash of them married, Liz still didn't tell him the truth. and then in "heart of mine" she made that confusing speech when they were dancing. for Max what she said was "don't dream anymore it's over"
I don't think that it's what Liz wanted to say, but Liz forgot that Max didn't know what she knew and she didn't understand that with what she made Max to believe he couldn't understand what she was really telling him




Ultimately Max made major steps to move on with his life and away from Liz.
it wasn't his choice
he tried to be with Liz even if it meant to be just a friend. But she pushed him away too especially in heart of mine
even in "off the menù" she was cold with him
what he was supposed to do?
what you would do into the same situation and with what he knew? i'm curious.

and again, Liz moved on too.
she dated (and wanted to date) Sean and kissed him even before Max kissed Tess and took in consideration the idea.
even in heart of mine she went to him and she wrote that page of her diary where she said that you can't help what your heart feels.

My point is that Liz couldn't do that.
my point is that Liz could do that and i showed why

also my point is that no matter if they were able to do it, it doesn't devalue their love for each other because it's human the way they tried to survive because they couldn't be with each other.
And before you say that her situation was different I don't believe her situation was all that different.
the situation was very different. i won't say why again. i explained it here very much why it was, i'm starting to feel like a broken CD.
Yes she knew that Max loved her but he still chose to leave her.
after she chose to leave him!

You can tell someone that you love them a thousand times however his actions showed that he was leaving her for Tess and baby.

you can tell someone that you love them a thousand times however HER actions from destiny to the end of season 2 showed that she was moving on and she didn't want to be with him anymore.


again, Liz knew that it was her fault too and she was the one who destroyed the Liz Max knew and loved.
again, the truth is too important.
how can't have faith into something that isn't true.


and again, just because she didn't sleep with Sean it doesn't mean that she didn't want to move on
i don't think that she would be alone forever. this doesn't mean that she would have loved another man like she loved Max.

again, just because someone's personality is stronger than another one (about something like sex into a certain point of their life) it doesn't mean that one love the other one more.
I'm not persecuting Max. I am just showing that Liz was "faithful" to him and that she loved him soo much that she couldn't see herself with anyone else when everything was done. Threw it all it was him for her. She would have never been happy with anyone else but him.
she didn't show him! she showed him the contrary, that's the whole point!
are we still taking for granted that Max knew what we knew? *goes into a coma*
Correct me if I am wrong. I'm paraphrasing but I think this was the jist of the conversation.

Max: We have to stand together
Liz: Do you believe that Alex could have been killed by an alien
Max: No
Liz: Then I guess I can't be apart of the group

Liz was willing to work together If Max budged even the slightest bit, it was his refusal of her that caused her to walk away from the group and not accept his "authority".

it seems to me that Max was the one who said that they had to stand together.
and again, Liz could be willing to work with him like you want but she didn't give him the truth. and i don't understand how she made things more easy for him when she accused him of being responsible of Alex's death.
she wanted him to believe in her at any cost and at the same time she did hurt him without realizing it and she didn't tell him the real reason of why she was so sure that Alex couldn't die into this timeline
again, how Max could still believe in her if his Liz wasn't the real one?

I don't think so. She was willing to work with Max and even compromise it wasn't until Max refused her and then forced their friendship to end that Max made the desicion to leave her. Liz wasn't the one who wanted to end their friendship. Liz wasn't the one who was threatening them and what they meant to eachother. That was all Max.
yes but Liz totally forgot what she did to Max since TEOTW. she totally forgot that he didn't know the truth and he couldn't know that she was right.
from Max's POV Liz had no right to be still someone that he had to believe at any cost and i don't blame him because 'his' Liz wasn't an angel and she wasn't the one he loved.
Liz was obsessed with finding Alex's killer.
Because she knew that he couldn't die and because she felt, illogically, responsible of his death since she was the one who chanced the future.
Alex was in danger. Alex died and she needed to find the truth about this death. Alex was, obviously, a priority for her more than Max, who wasn't in danger, her friends, her money, her parents, her own life.

contrary of what you said about Max i'm not saying that Max had to be her priority at any cost. i'm just showing you that sometimes your priority can't be the person you're in love with especially if that person isn't in danger. sometimes you don't have a choice and it's not really about priority
if you can't see that even for Liz, sometimes, Max COULDN't be a priority then it means that we have a different way to see what a human priority is.

anyway, i find illogical that you see it only on Max.
it's not that he always was her priority either.
see "changes" when she was sick and she left him. He obviously couldn't be her priority! it's perfectly normal.
again, we want tooo much from these people.
Not really. He was met with irrevocable proof that something was seriously other worldly and he couldn't live in denial anymore because he had Maria, Kyle, Liz and Michael starring him in the face telling him it was true. That's not believing in her. Believing in her would mean being by her side even when there wasn't dna evidence starring at his face.
see, i don't think that it really was about believing in her or not.
Because the problem for me is that Max knew from the start that she was right. he wasn't so stupid. but even if he knew that she was right it doesn't mean that he could accept the idea.
for Max it was just too much. He needed time.
this doesn't mean that he was right!
I'm just saying that he had his reasons for not accept her theory and he told Michael too.
he couldn't bear the thought that Alex died for his fault.

i don't understand why it's so hard to see and understand.
Except Liz never stopped. She always believed in him even when they were in the outs which was why she was so floored by his confessions to her that she lost it completely and lashed out at him in Departure.
sorry me but when she proved it?
surely not in heart of mine and not when she pushed away their friendship and told him that he had to wake up

it's not that she was awaiting for his help and believed that he could resolve the situation. on the contrary she felt that she was the only one right.

sorry me but it's inevitable that at one point she didn't believe in him especially when he was an ass with her.
Just like it was inevitable that at one point he didn't believe in her especially when she was a bitch with him.

but Max who stopped believing in Liz.
can you blame him with what he knew and what she did to him?
again, how he could believe in Liz when she told him lies and his Liz wasn't the real one?
there was nothing real to believe, in the first place.

it was a miracle that he was her friend till that moment.



and he was still with her even if their their relationship was strained when she attacked him in cry your name and ITAITB
Perhaps in CYN, but definetely not in ITBAITL or BIY
because for you she was with him and believed into their relationship from heart of mine to ITBAITL and BIY? :?
and don't tell me that he was an ass with her because then you have to remember that for Max Liz wasn't herself for the whole season 2 and she did hurt him a lot.
just because Liz had to lie and she wasn't the one he made Max believe she was it doesn't mean that her behavior didn't affect Max and didn't hurt him. for him it was everything real!


I don't agree. In Heart Of Mine she still loved him. She still wanted to be with him. She still believed in him.
but she didn't show it!!
on the contrary she ended their relationship even more!

But she was still resigned to the fact that she wasn't good for him and that he needed to be with Tess.
and Max was still resigned to the fact that he wasn't good for her and she needed to be with a normal boy who could let her breathe.

this is called real angst!
That he wanted to be with Tess and it was because she loved him that she pushed her towards him.
he didn't want to be with Tess. even when he started to remember he didn't start a relationship with Tess (for the matter, he didn't even after they sleep together. the baby forced them to be together). he wanted to tell Liz about his memories because they didn't change how he felt toward her. he still had hopes. he went at the prom with her not Tess.
It also didn't help that she saw them kissing not ten minutes after he danced with her.
after what she told him what she experted? she basically ended their relationship. i correct. she ended the possibility that they could have been a couple again
what you think that Max believed after she told him what she told him? especially without knowing the truth about her feelings?

after Liz told him this:

LIZ No, Max, it can be. It can be really, really easy. You know, we both just stop pretending.

MAX What do you mean?

LIZ You know, maybe we're both just holding on to something that'll never be. Max, maybe we should just let go. I have been in so much pain. This whole year. and it's like I'm suffocating.

MAX Liz


how can you not realize what it meant for him? she was damn confusing!
how her words could show him that she still wanted him, she still believed in them?

She didn't stop loving him or stop believing in him.
but this is the problem here. from Max's pov she really stopped to love him and believe in him
and it's not so hard to see why.
She just thought that he needed to be with Tess and it's because she loved him so completely (and the fact that everything was telling her that they needed to be together even themselves) that she let him go.

this is exactly what Max did too.
because he loved her he let her go in order to get what she wanted. (but it seems that for you only Liz could do it without showing that she didn't love him enough. so i don't understand your theory about faith into their relationship and the way they showed it. sorry me but it's really contradictory and hypocritical)
Liz told him that she didn't want to be with him. that she wanted to fall in love with a normal guy, that she needed to breathe and they needed to stop pretend that they could be together again. and Max let her go.

This is what I mean when I say that Liz's love is all consuming and selfless. Max always. Always. Always came before herself. Which was why she completely broke down in Ch-Ch-Changes because she was always looking out for Max's needs and wants before her own while she was slowly dying inside.
same goes for Max. He loved her so much that at one point he accepted that she didn't want to be with him anymore.
Liz broke down in changes (and the beginning of season 2). Max did it in too late and too bad. why only Liz could do it? it's the same.
if you see and understand Liz you have to do it with Max too. but you don't do it.
so again, i don't understand the purpose of this contradictory discussion :?

and i hate to do it again but i can't help but repeat the forgotten mantra: Max didn't know what YOU knew.

Max's love was all consuming and selfless too but since Liz wanted to save the world you don't notice his POV and how similar they were when they gave up and they had their personal crisis. How similar they were when they let go the other one for love and because they didn't want to ruin their life


He chose to lose everything.
he chose nothing when in TEOTW she ended their relationship and she keep on doing it over and over
what the heck he was supposed to do?

again, you forget that Max didn't know what you knew. Like if Liz never did what she did to him! Like if Liz never was the one who ended everything between them and broke his heart.
God save me!!!


What did he expect after his actions?
what did she expect after her actions and words?

reverse all the other phrases in the same way.

I know that
.

i find it really hard to believe
sorry but it doesn't seem to me that you REALLY know that or you take it in consideration
or maybe you know it but you don't care because Max had to be the perfect guy with the power to read minds and nothing could affect him and hurt him.

OMGThe point I was trying to make was that Liz was always loyal to him. Regardless of anything.
the point is that she wasn't always loyal to him. not the Liz he knew in season 2.
the Liz she herself created was everything but loyal and there was no way he could see the real Liz that YOU were seeing.

She did everything because he asked her to.
again, FMax asked her NOT Max!
Max didn't know any of this!!!
he asked her nothing! he wanted to be with her.

She wouldn't have done what she did for anyone except Max.
no doubt. but it isn't the point.
the point is that no matter what her reasons were she still did hurt Max
she did and said things that destroyed the Liz Max loved and created another one that he tried to understand but it was really hard for him because he didn't know the truth.
Future Max and regular Max are to different characters. I know that. But it was still "Max" who she did it for regardless.
yes but it isn't a justification. she did it for "him" but this doesn't change the fact that she did hurt him and broke his heart into pieces and he couldn't know what she was doing. it wasn't his fault and it will never be because he didn't make that the decision. he didn't even know that a decision had to be made, in the first place.
She couldn't tell him that was the entire reason she didn't. She couldn't risk making things worse then what they already were. Also telling Max would have made things worse. Tess could have ended up leaving because she wasn't making progress with Max and then they would have been in the same boat that they were in fourteen years in the future.
worse than how they already were? i find it hard to believe
but again you can't pretend that Max could still understand and believe in her at any cost without the truth
the truth is important into a relationship. you can't get something real when there's a big lie between them. and for that lie he couldn't understand many of the things that Liz was trying to tell him
also, after all, she told him after all this mess and they get together again. (and she told Maria even before it)



she did that because it was the best thing for him. Selfless love.
He did it because it was the best thing for her. Selfless love.

Not because she didn't want it but because she couldn't have it.
not because he didn't want it but because he couldn't have it
It was either be with Max or destroy the world and destroy Max.
it was either be with Liz or destroy her normal life and the others, and destroy Liz, and his duty toward his people and what he was supposed to be
That's not much of a choice
.

That's not much of a choice.

We all know that Liz would move the world to keep Max from feeling that kind of guilt and pain.
we all know that Max would move the world to keep Liz from feeling that kind of guilt and pain if he had know about what she was really doing.



Max couldn't know the truth because she wanted him safe and she wanted to save him from the fate that Future Max had. She never lost faith in him. Atleast not in my opinon. It was Max who lost faith in her.
again, she did lose her faith too. maybe not for you but for Max? yes. for me? yes. and she proved it with her words and actions. he had no other choice but accept that she didn't want to be with him anymore.
again, she did it for him but it doesn't delete what she really did to him and how it affected him.



Why everything was telling her that she couldn't be with him. The orbs, Nasedo, Future Max, Max himself in HOM, memory retrivals, ect. Everything was telling her to give him up because it was the best thing for him and she did. Selfless love.
why everything was telling him too that he couldn't be with her. The orbs, Nasedo, Liz in TEOTW, Liz himself in HOM, memory retrivals, Tess, ect.
everything was telling him to give her up because it was the best thing for her and he did. Selfless love.

Destiny was the same way. Nasedo, Orbs and Tess were all saying that he was meant to fufill his destiny with Tess and the four square group. She didn't want to come between that. She loved him enough to realize what he was supposed to do and move away from him so he could do what he had to. She gave him space to do what he needed. Also it wasn't as if Max felt nothing for Tess. He kissed her and he even said that he was attracted and drawn to her and he was even having sexual fantisies of her. Liz was making it easier for him to realize his "destiny" because that's what he needed to do and it's not as if Max fought very hard when they first met Tess. She thought it was inevitable.
firstly, the sexual fantasies were mindwarps and even Isabel realized it.
secondly, i don't disagree.
i just believe that you can apply it on Max too. but it seems to me that when M&L are doing the same thing one is good and the other one is evil incarnate.

again, it's not that for Max Liz wanted to be with him and she proved him. how he was supposed to know that she was doing what you just wrote?
he couldn't!
also, Liz wasn't indifferent to Sean too.
she kissed and dated him even before Max kissed someone who, at least, was his supposed wife and not a random girl!
not to mention that for Max Liz slept with Kyle. she moved on a year before he even took in consideration the idea to do the same thing!

again, don't look at what happened to Max using Liz's POV because otherwise it will never make sense because the Liz Max knew wasn't the same Liz YOU knew and he didn't know what YOU knew. he knew other things.

As to Ch-Ch-Changes she was a complete basket case both mentally and physically
and Max no! :? he never suffered both mentally and physically! noooooo. they even tortured him like that!
in too late and too bad or most of season 2 or lets say most of his life he was a happy boy with his easy life!


due to the fact that she always put Max above herself and constantly surpressed her very real hurt feelings. She couldn't believe in anything, let alone herself. She was overwhelmed, overtaxed and exhausted to the extent where she couldn't see anything. She was gone and that wasn't her fault.
i agree.
but i see it for Max too.

She was barely able to hold herself together and the source of her pain was from Max himself. It wasn't about faith or love then.
same goes for Max when he had HIS personal crisis
She obviously loved him then because she was distraught by all the pain that he was causing her.
same goes for Max.
he couldn't be so hurt by her if he didn't obviously love her.
Her relationship with him was destroying her from the inside out and she needed to get away. It wasn't about faith. Liz was in real mental, emotional, spiritual and physical danger to herself and others. That's an entirely different situation. She had no control over that alien influence.
it seems to me that only when it's about Liz it wasn't about faith! this is funny.
they were both into a real mental, emotional, spiritual and physical danger to herself and others.

and it's not that Max had control over the alien influence. he basically had someone else inside him. look at what happened to isabel in season 3.
I will agree that she pushed him away.
now i fear that the world will really end!
However the question of faith is off. Ch-Ch-Changes was an entirely different situation, while EOTW and Destiny were both episodes where Liz loved him enough to let him go and to save him. It was never a question of love or faith.
same goes for Max.
again, everyone had their own reasons and don't forget what Liz did to him too in season 2 and how he couldn't know what she was really doing.
Max tried to survive betrayal and her horrible words just like Liz was hurt by his words and actions too.
it wasn't about faith and love, it was about to survive and being human with limits and vulnerabilities.


sometimes Liz gave up too
When?
destiny, heart of mine, the episodes after Alex's death. maybe departure too.
changes.


totally normal. at least for me

No. Liz lived with a much worse and much more grizzily nightmare.
i totally disagree. this is a POV from someone who looked at Liz only and never on Max too.
She was in a worse one.
again, i totally disagree.

and notice, i'm not saying that Max's was worse.
i just don't devalue their feelings like you're doing with Max's.

they were two totally different situation both very painful but different. they're incomparable.

Liz wanted his friendship and she told him that. He was the one who ended their friendship when he emotionally blackmailed her into not going to Sweden. He caused that isolation himself.
again, she didn't prove him that she really wanted the friendship because you can be friend of someone you believe is responsible of the death of your best friend. it's not what she wanted to do but it's what Max perceived and only in departure she really told him that she didn't want to blame him
before it, Liz didn't even realize how much her words hurt Max and how they were uncalled for. Just like Max didn't realize how much he was hurting her with his behavior and how he refused to see that she was right.

If he loved her half as much as he said he did, I don't believe he would have slept with her. For Max Liz was the woman that he loved ever since he was nine years old. He loved her for eight years and then he just gave up. What happended to she was the only one for him and other such words and declarations.
Liz destroyed the Liz he loved with her words and actions. he had nothing to believe anymore. for him he was the only one who still loved her.

from his pov, what happened to he was the only one for him and other such words and declarations. what happened to "i don't care about normal as long as i'm with you"?

again, he didn't sleep with Tess knowing the truth. he didn't sleep with Tess when Liz loved him and was fidel to him and their love. stop to take it for granted.


Ultimately I feel that all of those romantic moments that they had were lies because
Max felt the same toward Liz from TEOTW to the end.

He was going to spend the rest of his life with Tess. He was willing to do things for her and with her that were permenant.
don't make it seems that he had another choice and he was happy!
he was forced by duty toward the baby and you know it.

M&T weren't a couple, there was nothing real between them. they were created by manipulations and they stayed together for some hours just because of their mistake.
again, even Tess knew that Max still loved and wanted Liz and *she saw it*

if i can be honest, from Max POV and what he knew, Tess deserved his love more than Liz.
again you have to not take for granted things that Max didn't know especially when his reality was another one. everything was the contrary.


That's Liz's selflessness. She thought that's what Max needed and wanted and she didn't want to make him feel guilty about it in HOM and CYN.
that's Max's selflessness too! he thought that she needed to be without him like she herself said.


Liz always wanted to be Max's friend. That was the only thing she had to settle for. See MITC, CYN and others.
at one point she inevitably proved him that she didn't want. her words.
i'm not saying that she was totally wrong.

Two completely different relationships. Sean was no where near as close to Liz as Tess was to Max. Emotionally, physically, spiritually or mentally.
even after Max slept with her and got memories about her he never stopped to love Liz. His heart chose her. even if his Liz wasn't even the real one and he still believed that she did all the things she did to him. again, even Tess knew it.


I believe that. I just believe that Liz loved Max so much that she couldn't bare to share herself emotionally or otherwise with anyone else.
we have to agree to disagree for the reasons i already stated.



Because there were multiple times when Max had the choice to choose Liz but she always came up short.
when?
more than Liz? more than another human being without choice?
where the 'always' here?

only one time in departure and then it's always?
and it's not that he really had a choice, not in the real human world where people are not omnipotent IMO
what you pretended from him?


And it also shows that she didn't.
but again she wasn't into Max's situation and again even if she really was and she didn't it doesn't automatically mean that she loved him more just for that.


You can't be nothing to someone when you love them.
i know but again his Liz wasn't the real one. no one can blame
you wouldn't have blamed Liz in the same situation if Max had done what she did to him in season 2


He also didn't tell her that he didn't love Tess. I think that was a blow to her as well. That Max loved her. While Liz wasn't able to love anyone else but him.
Love and to be in love are two different things. even Tess knew that Max loved Liz and not her (not that she really cared IMO. after all he was supposed to die)
max cared about Tess because she loved and supported him when no one was with him.
Liz loved other people outside Max. she loved Maria, Alex, her parents. when she was dying she saw them too into the summary of her life (while Max saw only her).
But it doesn't mean that Liz was in love with them all.
M&L loved other people (=care) but they were in love with each other only

when Liz made that question Max didn't want her to believe that he was in love with Tess and he loved her in that way. But he couldn't even tell her that he didn't give a damn about Tess especially in that situation. So even if Liz didn't ask about *her* he still wanted her to understand that she was the one he loved that way, no matter what. again, even Tess knew it.
there's no question here and no doubt.

i also believe that he didn't want her to feel sad and responsible of his future unhappiness.(like, you're into this situation because i lied to you)
notice that he smiled at her and he didn't break down until she couldn't see him anymore.





I think it does. Max loved someone else.
so Liz.
but they were in love with each other only


I understand that he didn't think that. However he made himself believe that.
are you kidding me?????????????????????????? how he could?
dear God it really seems that Liz had NO responsibility here!
now Max did everything by himself, even the things he couldn't control!



Liz still cared about him and still wanted to be friends.
so Max.
even after she slept with Kyle and betrayed their love with those words.

He was the one that destroyed their relationship and weakened it to the extent that he felt so alone and isolated.
Liz was the one who did/started to do it even before that episode!
He was the one that put himself in that situation. Not Liz.
Liz ended their relantionship
Liz created that alternative reality where she was bad and betrayed him

don't say that Max did everything by himself because Liz had her own responsibility. he wasn't the one who started that crap, in the first place.
in that episode it was just too late and too bad for him to still fight for something that it really didn't seem real anymore.

Liz still cared for him and that showed even if it wasn't a romantic love. She still loved him.
Max still cared for her and that showed even if it wasn't a romantic love. he still loved her.


She still went to him after Alex's death (that was love), she needed him, she needed his support.
he still wento to her in a roswell xmas carol (that was love and even more than this, like Jason Katims and Jason behr said) he needed her, he needed her support.
She needed him to understand. She needed him to believe in her.
he needed her to understand. he needed her to believe in him and not not accuse him of ruining their life.
I don't see how he overlooked this. It was as plain as day especially in CYN and in MITC.
I don't see how she overlooked this. It was as plain as day especially in Max in the city, a roswell xmas carol, we're a family, to serve and to protect, disturbing behavior, w las vegas....
Who else did she go to in the middle of the night and knock on the window to the room?
who else did he go to in the middle of the xmas night and knock on the door the crashdown?
You completely took what I said out of context. It doesn't mean anything when he was leaving with Tess.
i don't understand


i can't see how Tess could feel loved and could feel devotion if she knew and we knew that Max was unhappy and he was doing what he was doing just because he was forced by duty toward the baby.
What about from Liz's point of view. How do you think she saw it? Bottom line is Max had a wife and a child and he was leaving her. That's what she saw.
what about from Max's POV. how do you think he saw what she did(i'm talking about from TEOTW on)? bottom line is Liz had her normal life, she slept with Kyle (normal guy) dated Sean( normal guy) and she wanted to move on with a normal guy because she didn't want to die for him and she didn't love him enough to accept the danger and sacrifice her safety. everything she said and did in season 1 meant nothing after she discovered that he was a king and he was in danger. that's what he saw

I think I went over this.
me too.
Except that Max didn't need her. He needed Tess.
he didn't need Tess. she was nothing for him, she wasn't the one he was in love with. she was a stranger for him.
he needed *Liz*. his destiny with the blond thing is irrelevant. it doesn't change who he loved and needed.
Atleast that's what all the facts were telling her and she didn't want to impose herself on his destiny.
Max keep on telling and proving her that he didn't care and we know that Liz was starting to understand it. but then FMax changed her plans.

Also it wasn't as if Max went running after her. For all she knew she was doing him a favor.
are you kidding me?????? so i dreamed everything! i dreamed the all the things he said and he did


i will post for you what Ronald Moore said about Max in season 2 especially the beginning


"And then enter Liz. And you know we're playing. One of the great things about season two was playing Max chasing Liz. You know I thought that was a really fun thing. I think it really said a lot about his feeling for her. That he wasn't willing to give it up and that, you know, you were awaiting for for her resolve to weaken and hoping she's gonna go back into his arms."

"I love that! he's a kid! He's a kid, he doesn't care about his "destiny", he's not a captain Kirk. He doesn't care about his unseen planet he just found out about. What he cares about is a very human thing. He cares about this girl. He loves her and she loves him. It's the world to him! That's what it's primary in his mind. And I think that's what the show is about. That's what brings people to this show is this strong love between them"

(Ronald Moore, roswell's producer and writer about the "I'm coming for you Liz" scene- Ask Not commentary)



it seems to me that you're using selective memory (only when it's about Max) you're so angry and prevented toward him and that you see no more than what you want to see.
you totally delete everything Max did like if he never did it. it's like if we're talking about two different people.
so, again, this discussion is totally useless.



Max had Isabel, Tess (the love of his life), Nasedo and Michael. He was in a world where she couldn't exist. She wasn't an alien and she couldn't have helped him. She would have only hurt him and his mission.
i give up.


you should apply on her and her behavior after destiny the same judgment you apply on Max's behavior
Again. Selfless love.
and again, it was like that for Max too not only when it's about Liz!

I guess it's because in the end of it all it was always Max for her. All of her actions are stems of his actions. All of her actions were done for the best of his interests. She always put Max before herself. Always. Always. Always. She always believed in him. Where as the one time where Liz needed Max he was no where to be found. Actually that's not true. He was manhandeling her, screaming at her and then destroying thier friendship.
we will never agree.
again, Max didn't know what you knew. for him the truth was another one. Liz was a bitch for him and she made him believe it.
and for him she always put herself before him. always always always :lol: she didn't believe in him.




Not anymore surreal then what Max asked in TLAV.
the difference is that Liz had evidence and Max didn't tell her that he cheated on her. not to mention that Michael and Isabel experienced it too.
while Liz kept on confirming him what she did and what he saw even when he tried to still believe in her and that what he saw wasn't the truth
he couldn't read her mind.


Totally different motivations. Liz did that to protect him and for his best interests.
but Max didn't know!!!!

i don't care about motivations and what Liz was really doing. since Max didn't know any of this i can't use her motivations against him!



Liz apologized for that and asked for him to believe in her. He didn't.
sorry me but it seems to me that they both indirectly apologized not just liz.
and Max went to her.
Max knew that Liz needed a friend. I would think that would have been enough...
Max needed a friend too and he wasn't omnipotent. also i would think that Liz would think about what Max believed she did to him in order to understand why "maybe" he couldn't still believe in her and enough was enough even for someone like Max.


Willing meaning he wasn't forced.
ok. but it's not that he did it in the best moment of his life or because he really wanted it
he was influenced by too many factors, the bigger one his bad state and his misery

you make it seems that it happened when he was ok and Liz loved him (from his pov) and they really had a chance (from his pov) and he didn't feel the way he felt. you make it seems that he was happy about it when he wasn't and even isabel understood it without so much words. even Tess.
you make it seems that it was the best time of his life when for Max it was the worst mistake of his life.


She also knew that Max "loved" Tess and was leaving the planet with her to start a life with her. Really what did the I Love You do. He was still with Tess. They were only words. It didn't change anything and it's not as if he was going to stay with her. She lost him. All of her greatest fears came true. I mean what comfort could she find in that? miniscule if any. Max knew that Liz still wanted to have a relationship with him even if it was only platonic. I would think that would penatrate threw his head but I guess it wasn't enough.
again, i disagree and i told you why
we just keep on repeat the same things over and over getting on nonewhere.


Liz didn't destroy anything. That was him.
Liz was the one who made him believe that she slept with Kyle and didn't want to be with him anymore, in the first place
*she* created it all. she created the lie, she created the alternative Liz that wasn't the one he loved

he wasn't the one who created it all.
in that moment he finally gave up since he had no reason anymore to still believe, after a year of hopes.
He was the one who ended their friendship when he gave her the ultimatem.
but she was the one who started it all in TEOTW. and after it he still "forgave" her enough to be still friends.

No. He said not the way I love you. Which isn't really an answer. That implies that he loves her but in a different way. He doesn't say that he doesn't love her. He doesn't even answer the question.
i believe that he not only answered to the question she made but he answered to the question she didn't even make.



She ended their relationship in Destiny one time. She didn't end their relationship another time
and what about TEOTW?
again, for Max she did! and she was the one who made him believe it.
an d she confirmed it over and over. ultimately in HOM too.
until season three in Ch-Ch-Changes because she had her breakdown.
Max had his breakdown too after she did what she did to him a year before, but it seems that his feelings are always irrelevant because you take for granted that he knew what you knew and Liz was an heroine for everyone and she didn't hurt him just like he did hurt her when he slept with Tess.

We kind of went threw all of the episodes in season three and confirmed this.
it seems to me that they confirm the contrary
I disagree. She always loved him.
Max too!
even Tess knew it and admitted it.

Always had faith in him. All three of those episodes she pushed him away for other reasons.
Max too
Most of them were for his best interests at heart.
Max too


I think she did the right thing.
and i beg to differ
because this "right thing" destroyed their relantionship

it wasn't only Max's fault.

Especially since Future Max made it clear to her that she couldn't tell Max anything.
when he really told it her?
it doesn't seem to me that he told her what she had to do after that night
and, again, after all sooner or later Liz told Max however and they still were together.

No there is a difference. There is a sympathetic and understandable motivation for a person to do one thing and then there is a just plain old out of character reaction (ala Max). Liz's reactions were all true to her character. They all made sense. Max's just weren't.
i beg to differ.
to me there's no difference because Max was very understandable and sympathetic too especially after the hell he lived and what he believed.

She always loved him and always had faith in him. That's truth.
the same goes for Max. when he did lose his faith he did lose his faith into a Liz that wasn't the real one. a Liz that was a big lie and didn't give him something to have faith for.

But things couldn't be different. Hence the point Helpless.
and so?
i don't understand the point :lol:

She couldn't.
why?
in the end she did it however

Yes be with Max, end the world, turn him into a shell of himself because he lost his friends and family by lovign her. She totally had a choice! :lol: That was Liz's choice. Her desicion.
the truth is too important for me especially into a relationship. and Max didn't get it.
no matter what, Liz still had a choice. she could tell him like she did later.
maybe it wasn't a good choice because for the original plan she couldn't do it, but no one can fault her.she couldn't handle alone what she couldn't handle.

It wasn't much of a choice. It would have been selfish for her to jeopardize the future of the world.
it's true. but inevitably she made a choice for Max too because he couldn't know what she was doing and he couldn't be a part of a choice that affected his life as well not only hers. no matter what her reasons were, i don't fault her. but it doesn't change the fact that she did manipulate him and this affected him as a person and his way to see things.

I know. I'm just showing that Liz wasn't a priority for Liz for most of season three.
and i just showed you why she wasn't into 2 episodes and how in the end he chose her over his own son and for her he stopped to search.
Liz wanted Max to be apart of it. Max was still important to her. Ultimately it was Max who ended up pushing her away with the fight.
yes. But Max couldn't be a part of it after she told him that it was his fault!
she didn't mean it but she did.


I guess I am. I like Liz more because I think overall she is just more true.
and i guess that we need to stop this useless discussion then :?
especially since for me a real Dreamer can't be like that. so i don't want to be rude especially into a board full of Liz's worshipers (= UC fanfictions where she's being whored out to every male thing alive)
sorry, i guess that it's my limit




last thing. i have to say it, sorry if the English isn't always the best. remember that it isn't my mother language. it's hard for me to translate into another language what i really want to say. I'm inevitably limited.
Last edited by Coccy on Fri Sep 05, 2008 6:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Even if my molecules were spread out from here to whatever galaxy my home planet is in,
that wouldn't stop me. All my molecules would be like little homing pigeons.
They'd all zoom to you, and then I'd re-form." - Max Evans; Roswell High - The Watcher
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Re: Who loves who more?? Max or Liz?? and why do you think so??

Post by Cocogurl » Fri Sep 05, 2008 6:40 am

You know, Coccy, that's one time you didn't quote anything I said. I feel all left out now! :( Kidding! :lol:

But I do agree with a lot of the points you just made. And I never wanted to seem like I was anti-Max 'cause I'm definitely not. I just don't like hearing a lot of crap about her either, because her and Max were my two ultimate fav character and unlike you, the only thing I see when I go on these forums is how Liz is the bitch, and she's not. Tess certainly is though. :lol:

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Re: Who loves who more?? Max or Liz?? and why do you think so??

Post by Coccy » Fri Sep 05, 2008 6:46 am

Cocogurl wrote:You know, Coccy, that's one time you didn't quote anything I said. I feel all left out now! :( Kidding! :lol:

But I do agree with a lot of the points you just made. And I never wanted to seem like I was anti-Max 'cause I'm definitely not. I just don't like hearing a lot of crap about her either, because her and Max were my two ultimate fav character and unlike you, the only thing I see when I go on these forums is how Liz is the bitch, and she's not. Tess certainly is though. :lol:
:lol:


the funny thing is that i see the contrary. it seems to me that Max is evil incarnate for everyone and very few people try to understand his POV too especially into his board. after all, look at this discussion. i'm the only one here.
the big proof of the Liz's worshipers trend it is the amount of UC Liz fanfiction where Max is evil vs the very small amount of Max UC ff. come on... poor Liz is being whored out to every male thing alive, there's even a lj community anti the trend.
it's disgusting. and the bad thing is that for these ff and this Liz that isn't the original one, many roswell fans hate her and they hate we dreamers.

i was reading a ff written by a girl i know on live journal. But i gave up because of the Max's hate and the "pt Liz with this guy instead of loser Max! Make him suffer!" (and it's not that the Max of the ff was evil incarnate)
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"You're what would bring me back.
Even if my molecules were spread out from here to whatever galaxy my home planet is in,
that wouldn't stop me. All my molecules would be like little homing pigeons.
They'd all zoom to you, and then I'd re-form." - Max Evans; Roswell High - The Watcher
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Re: Who loves who more?? Max or Liz?? and why do you think so??

Post by Cocogurl » Fri Sep 05, 2008 7:20 am

I've never been a big UC girl. Unless you count Kyle and Isabel, but I'm not sure if the qualifies as UC. I think it does.

I've just been too a couple of differents boards were all they talk about is how LIZ is evil incarnate. And I really don't think it's that simple. I may agree some of Liz's decisions more than Max's, I do understand what he was going through and how those things based some of his decisions. But I also understand where Liz's coming from too, and I probably would've done some of the things that Liz did if I were in her position. Especially when it came to Alex, but only because at that point I think it shouldn't have been entirely about how Max was feeling or how Liz was feeling. It should've mostly been about figuring what exactly happened because he was the one who kinda got caught in the crossfire of this whole thing.

But I think the thing WE ALL keep forgetting about is that none of Season 2 was black or white. It was all very complex. Like, if you think about it one way, if Liz hadn't changed the future, Alex probably wouldn't have died in season 2. But at the same time, because of who Max, Michael and Isabel are he still would have died. They all would have.

But I think the bottom line is, they both did things in Season 2 and I'm definitely not denying that. I just think most of the things that Liz did in season 2 weren't for herself and more for others. Because unless Liz was a totally soulless person, she really didn't have TOO much of a choice. I think that in those moments, if you're good person, you only really have one choice. So she did it, she sacrificed her entire future happiness for Max and the rest of the world And yes, Max definitely did a lot of things weren't selfish. I just don't agree his behavior at the end of season 2. I definitely understand WHY he acted the way that he did, I just don't agree with it.

But I am a total dreamer and Max and Liz will always be one of the best couples on televisions. :D

Now I'm tired and I'm goin' to bed. :lol:

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Re: Who loves who more?? Max or Liz?? and why do you think so??

Post by Coccy » Fri Sep 05, 2008 8:07 am

i just wanted to add something for the "Max's son" thing and his priorities because really this point make me cringe inside and maybe it's the most unreasonable thing of this discussion

it's like saying that if one night your husband goes after your crying sick baby and leave you alone in the bed for 5 minutes it means that you aren't his priority ever and he doesn't love you enough. it's the same thing >_<

and with Max the funny (not really funny) thing is that in the end he really made a choice between his son and Liz (something she NEVER asked him).
people don't even realize it but after Liz was in danger and he almost lost her again he made the choice. he stopped to search and he pretended that he wasn't interested in the alien crash or the alien object Michael found. It could have been a good clue in order to find his son and actually it really was because his son was in that spaceship. But he didn't even try. because of her. because of how she felt about his son. because he didn't want to lose her... again.
i didn't want something like that from Max. no father should make a choice between his own son (who is in danger) and the woman he loves. it's inhuman it's just too terrible and unacceptable for me.

just because he loved his son too and tried to help him when he was in danger it doesn't mean that he didn't love Liz enough. Liz wasn't in danger. his son was and asked his help. and his son was a little one totally helpless, he wasn't even a year old.

one of roswell's official books is about this topic.
The book "Quarantine". and the core point of that book is nothing more than what i said above.







Cocogurl wrote: I've just been too a couple of differents boards were all they talk about is how LIZ is evil incarnate.
can you give me the links? :lol: really, i'm not kidding.
because i never found more Liz's hate than Max's especially into this board

not that i search for it.
in all honestly i'd love to be a dreamer and to find a place where i can be one without having to defend one of them
And I really don't think it's that simple.
i totally agree.


But I think the thing WE ALL keep forgetting about is that none of Season 2 was black or white. It was all very complex. Like, if you think about it one way, if Liz hadn't changed the future, Alex probably wouldn't have died in season 2. But at the same time, because of who Max, Michael and Isabel are he still would have died. They all would have.
it's everything very very complex
especially when you have to analyze M&L povs individually because their POV were not only different but the contrary
my point is that we can't understand Liz using Max's POV and we can't understand Max using Liz's POV

But I think the bottom line is, they both did things in Season 2 and I'm definitely not denying that. I just think most of the things that Liz did in season 2 weren't for herself and more for others. Because unless Liz was a totally soulless person, she really didn't have TOO much of a choice.
no one is saying the contrary

but this doesn't mean that Max's feelings weren't understandable and important as well. it doesn't mean that she didn't hurt him and manipulated him. even if it was for his good she still, inevitably, created something. this alternative reality where Max couldn't understand what was really happening to her and to them.
i can't go against him using Liz's pov, using a truth that he didn't know and not only he didn't know but his truth was the contrary of what we knew.



I think that in those moments, if you're good person, you only really have one choice.
so Max into some of the points that were made against him into this discussion
like when he wanted to save his baby or he couldn't get more time in departure.

So she did it, she sacrificed her entire future happiness for Max and the rest of the world And yes, Max definitely did a lot of things weren't selfish. I just don't agree his behavior at the end of season 2. I definitely understand WHY he acted the way that he did, I just don't agree with it.
i don't agree either. i correct. knowing what Liz really did, i don't obviously agree with him (well.. even Max didn't agree with himself :lol: he knew that he was the worst mistake of his life) but i understand him and i sympathize with him.
If i were Max with *that* Liz, than he was right just like Liz was right when she was hurt for what he did to her.

again, i find impossible to say who loved who more. and surely i can't say it looking at Liz's pov only in season 2 because again, the Liz Max saw wasn't the real one and when he did what he did it happened into a specific moment of his life where he didn't know what we knew about Liz. this is not a detail.
he didn't what he did knowing what we knew and with what he knew and what he lived it's understandable why he did what he did.
also, just because one showed to be more vulnerable into a moment it doesn't mean that they don't love each other in the same way. love can be strong but it doesn't mean that the person who feels is always strong.
they just showed their love for each other into different ways and times and we have to look at the whole series not just one moment and just for one of them.
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"You're what would bring me back.
Even if my molecules were spread out from here to whatever galaxy my home planet is in,
that wouldn't stop me. All my molecules would be like little homing pigeons.
They'd all zoom to you, and then I'd re-form." - Max Evans; Roswell High - The Watcher
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Sin
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Re: Who loves who more?? Max or Liz?? and why do you think so??

Post by Sin » Fri Sep 05, 2008 9:25 am

and why?
I just don't see the point of going into a relationship when you are still hung up on another person. Both Liz and Max are guilty of this and ultimately they both knew that their feelings for one another wouldn't fade away. Maybe it would have been easier for me to see someone alone versus someone who goes into a relationship when they're heart is not in it. I see both points of view regarding the other's relationship with other people. For Liz she knew that Tess and Max were becoming closer and closer and that tore her apart because that was the way it had to be, for Max it was heartbreaking to see Liz with Kyle and then to see her dating Sean. They were both hurt by eachother and both had really bad circumstances behind thier actions. I can understand why he was with Tess. However I would still think that Max wouldn't just sleep with someone else (Tess) when he was in love with someone else (Liz). I don't think that's a Max trait. It's not so much about what Liz did to him for me but how he was able to sleep with Tess when he was still for the most part in love with Liz. I think that's the problem.
it wasn't just Liz his problem. He felt that he did lose everything, even her friendship, even her trust, even her care! Like if *she* saw him as the responsible of Alex's death. Then add that Max felt forced to make a choice between what he really wanted and what he had to be.
He may have felt that way. But that's because he kept on pushing her. His actions drove him to those conclusions. Liz wanted to be his friend. She wanted his support but he chose to give her an ultimatem which pushed her away. He may have been hurt by the past (CYN, EOTW, HOM, ect.) but he still knew that she needed to have a friend (CYN) and that she wanted to work with him and she wanted him to believe in her (ITBAITL). I thought that Max would care enough about her to atleast hear her out and give her a chance. But I guess not. Liz apologized for saying the things she said at Alex's funeral but she didn't apologize for the fact that she felt that an alien killed Alex.
Max was really into a bad state. lets see (i try):
I know all of Max's backstory. I saw season one.
how he could believe in Liz and their love when his Liz wasn't the real one and their love was destroyed?
What about his love for her? Wouldn't that be enough. To atleast hear her out and try to understand. To atleast give her a chance to prove that something was wrong? All Liz was asking for was a small bit of help and Max couldn't give it to her. It's not about the real Liz or the lying Liz. It's about what Max felt for her and ultimately how he didn't love her enough to even try to understand where she was coming from.
he tried to be with Liz even if it meant to be just a friend. But she pushed him away too especially in heart of mine
She pushed away the chance at a romantic relationship with him, but even then she told him how much she was hurt over the fact that he was with Tess and she even told him her fears that one day Max would love her and that she was waiting for the other shoe to drop. She told Max her fears about Max embracing his alien side and finding out that he didn't love her anymore. Atleast that's what I got out of the speech. How this flew over Max's head i'll never know. It's obvious that Liz was saying all of this stuff because it was how she truely felt. She even said that she felt she could barely breath this entire year because she was just waiting for Max to remember his past life and his past love for Tess. It's obvious that she was feeling things stronger then friendship for him. She went to prom with him, she danced to slow songs with him and she wanted to be with him. But she couldn't. She even told him why she couldn't. That was a declaration of love for her and it wrapped up everything she was feeling from the very beginning and Max just proved her right when he kissed Tess when he was on a prom date with Liz. The second time he kissed Tess while he was with Liz. That just furthered proved that for her she was doing the right thing by stepping aside. It echoed by the fact that he was soo excited about having remembered something from his past.
even in "off the menù" she was cold with him
Because he was cruel to her in ITBAITL and BIY. Why would she be warm and receptive to him? Especially since he attacked her various times in those two episodes.
what he was supposed to do?
I don't see how he didn't see that she was hurting. HOM and CYN are both episodes that show a window into what Liz really felt. HOM showed her fears and her love for him (when she talked about the pain of him remembering his past life and love) and CYN and ITBAITL showed that she wanted him to help her and that she wanted him to support her. Liz needed Max. She needed a friend and he wasn't there for her.
from Max's POV Liz had no right to be still someone that he had to believe at any cost and i don't blame him because 'his' Liz wasn't an angel and she wasn't the one he loved.
What.
Alex was, obviously, a priority for her more than Max
Liz wanted Max to believe in her and to help her. She wanted to include him. It was Max who walked away and when he came back she accepted him without hesitation.
i don't understand why it's so hard to see and understand.
That his fear was greater then Liz's need for his support and help? I guess that's just yet another difference between both of them. He was willing to end their friendship because he was unwilling to see reason. That's a different perspective. I never saw it that way before.
sorry me but when she proved it?
surely not in heart of mine and not when she pushed away their friendship and told him that he had to wake up
Again she didn't push away their friendship. She pushed away the possibility of a romantic relationship. She still wanted to be friends but she couldn't deal with anything more at that point. She was still so scared that Max wouldn't love her anymore. That Max would find out that he loved Tess and that he would remember all of his past life and forget about her. That was clear from her discussion with him. She was waiting for the other shoe to drop and ultimately Max didn't try to prove her wrong. Max didn't tell her that he loved her and that he would always love her. Max wasn't denying what Liz was saying. She told him that she couldn't breathe the entire year because she was waiting for him to forget about her and love Tess and Max let her go and then made out with Tess while he was on a date with her. Max was just proving that Liz was right (and confirming her fears).
it's not that she was awaiting for his help and believed that he could resolve the situation.
No. But she flat out told him that she would be with him if he just believed in her. She wanted him to support her and wanted him to be her friend. No she wasn't waiting. But she wanted his help. More then anyone elses in my opinon.
can you blame him with what he knew and what she did to him?
again, how he could believe in Liz when she told him lies and his Liz wasn't the real one?
there was nothing real to believe, in the first place.
I would of thought that his feelings for her would atleast let him hear her out.
but she didn't show it!!
on the contrary she ended their relationship even more!
I think her declaration showed it. I'm sorry but she basically just spelled out her entire feelings for him to see. I feel like threw this entire year that I couldn't breath because I was waiting for you to remember Tess and your love for her and your planet. I mean come on! If that didn't show that she was still hung up on him then nothing would. Further more she went to prom with him. Those should have caused alarms to go off. She did show it. But she also told him that it was okay to have those feelings and she let him go overall because she thought that's what he wanted and again it wasn't as if he was denying it. Telling her he loved her forever and that he could never love Tess like he loved her. (That came in Departure when it should of came here in my opinon). He wasn't soothing her fears he was eradicating them and showing her that she was right. HOM, CYN, ITBAITL and Departure are all episodes where we see where Liz comes from with the entire Max/Tess deal.

She never gave up her friendship. She gave her blessing for Max to be with Tess and not have to feel guilty about it.
he didn't want to be with Tess.
To be honest he wasn't showing her that. He went away to New York with Tess, he kissed her when he was on a date with Liz, everything from season one showed and verified that they were connect with eachother and various outside forces and even Max himself was showing that he wanted to be with Tess or atleast felt a pull towards her. Memory retrival, ect. All that was showing from Liz's point of view that Max wanted or was gravitating towards Tess.
even when he started to remember he didn't start a relationship with Tess
Liz didn't know that. She saw them on a date together in HOM. She saw that Max was remembering things about his past life with Tess no less and then at the very end saw him making out with Tess while he was on a date with her. I mean all of those thigns pointed to Max wanting to be with Tess. Atleast from her perception. Along with various other things.

LIZ You know, maybe we're both just holding on to something that'll never be. Max, maybe we should just let go. I have been in so much pain. This whole year. and it's like I'm suffocating.

you were married to her. I feel like my whole life for the past year has been waiting for some really bad news. Oh, you know, by the way Liz, I remember Tess, and I love her. It's really paralyzing.
how her words could show him that she still wanted him, she still believed in them?
She believed in Max. I think her words do shwo that she still wanted him but she came to the conclusion that she couldn't have him because it wouldn't be what was best for him. She even states that she feels paralyzed by the possiblity that he would remember Tess and he would love her again. Again she is verbalizing her fears. She is also showing that it hurts her to think about it. She is setting him free of any obligation he has to her because she thinks that's what he needs.
Max did it in too late and too bad.
I don't think it's the same. Perhaps it's the story, the way it was written or the direction of the episode but I didn't feel as if Max was possessed by anything. Atleast with Michael we had that weird constellation thing to show that he was being controlled, with Isabel we had those dark black eyes to show she was being controlled with Liz her powers were out of control and something inside was literally destroying her and started to mess not only with her body but her senses and her emotions. Max was mostly normal. He wasn't going threw any kind of transformation. He was just acting like a jerk to all his friends.
if you see and understand Liz you have to do it with Max too.
Except I don't understand. I don't see why he had to end their friendship because he didn't want to see truth. I thought Liz meant more to him then that. I don't understand how he could say and do those cruel things to his sister. I don't understand why he couldn't talk to someone else about his problems. I don't understand alot of his choices in ITBAITL.
he chose nothing when in TEOTW she ended their relationship
They weren't in a relationship. They weren't in a relationship at all. They ended it in Destiny.
she did and said things that destroyed the Liz Max loved
If that's true then that's conditional love.
but again you can't pretend that Max could still understand and believe in her at any cost
I think that's what Liz did for Max multiple times even with less. Future Max in TEOTW, real Max in TLAV, Max in Sameul Rising, Max in ARCC, ect.
and Max no! :? he never suffered both mentally and physically! noooooo. they even tortured him like that!
in too late and too bad or most of season 2 or lets say most of his life he was a happy boy with his easy life!
I'm not saying that Max never went threw horriable things. TWR is a testiment to that.
same goes for Max when he had HIS personal crisis
I don't see it the same way. Liz was out of control. She was a danger to herself and others. Max wasn't out of control. He had full control of everything he was doing and he chose to push everyone away from him and then he chose to end his relationship with Liz and ruin his relationship with Isabel. Then he chose to sleep with Tess.
Totally different situation.
and it's not that Max had control over the alien influence.
What alien influence? If he did have an alien influence inside of him then they did a horrid job of portraying it.
destiny, heart of mine, the episodes after Alex's death. maybe departure too.
changes.
She didn't stop believing in Max in any of those episodes. She still believed in him and loved him. Destiny and HOM were about letting him do what he wanted to do. Departure she loved him and believed in him so I don't get that part at all. As to CYN and ITBAITL both episodes were where Liz wanted him to be herfriend and support her and he was the one who cut off their relationship. In BIY Liz wasn't the one who was yelling and screaming at her. She wanted to talk to Tess peacefully but Max attacked her. None of those episodes showed her loss of faith in him.

Changes wasn't about Max. It was about taking care of herself because no one could help her and she was out of control. It wasn't about not loving Max or not believing in him or his abilities. He couldn't help her. She needed to get away and get everything together.
Liz destroyed the Liz he loved
Conditional love.
at one point she inevitably proved him that she didn't want.
She always wanted his friendship. She always wanted his support. That's what the entire end of season two was about for her. MITC, ARCC, CYN, ITBAITL and Departure all show that.

only one time in departure and then it's always?
Departure, Control, BIY, ITBAITL, HOM, SR, ect.
i know but again his Liz wasn't the real one.
Every time I read this phrase it just makes me think more and more that there are qualifciations and limits to his love. If Liz doesn't act a certaint way or if Liz isn't perfect then he'll stop loving her. Or if there is the slightest hiccup or problem he won't love her as fully or as much as he once did. I have no doubt in my mind that Liz loved Max as much as she did in seasons one and three the same way she loved him in season two. Her love was an all consuming and unconditional love.

he didn't need Tess. she was nothing for him,
LIz didn't see that. Liz didn't know that. Liz saw in HOM that they were becoming closer and that Max was excitied about his memory retrival. Everything for the past year was telling her that Max and Tess were supposed to be together. Even Max himself in HOM.
he needed *Liz*. his destiny with the blond thing is irrelevant. it doesn't change who he loved and needed.
Again Liz didn't know this. She thought she was doing what was best for him because she loved him.
are you kidding me?????? so i dreamed everything! i dreamed the all the things he said and he did
I meant he didn't go after her in Destiny. He just let her run away then things were too late.
Max had his breakdown
I didn't see ITBAITL as a breakdown. If it was supposed to be one they did a really bad job of portraying that to my screen.
especially since for me a real Dreamer can't be like that. so i don't want to be rude especially into a board full of Liz's worshipers (= UC fanfictions where she's being whored out to every male thing alive)
sorry, i guess that it's my limit
I don't like Liz paired up with anyone except Max. Just because I think it's untrue to her character to be in a seriously romantic relationship with anyone except Max. Except maybe Zan, who is an extention of Max so I can allow that and believe that. Dreamer is the only relationship in Roswell that I like. I don't want to see Liz with anyone but Max and I don't want to see Max with anyone except Liz.


last thing. i have to say it, sorry if the English isn't always the best. remember that it isn't my mother language. it's hard for me to translate into another language what i really want to say. I'm inevitably limited.
Don't worry about it. I can understand everything you say.

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Coccy
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Re: Who loves who more?? Max or Liz?? and why do you think so??

Post by Coccy » Fri Sep 05, 2008 11:30 am

this discussion is getting nonewhere
we just say the same things and we won't change each other opinion

for you Liz was all innocent and a saint who did no wrong.
for me they were both wrong and they both damaged their relantionship

for you Liz loved him more because he slept with Tess even if it happened into the worst moment of his life without knowing what Liz was really doing and believing that she didn't love him anymore and he did lose everything and he had to give up because it was his destiny

I don't quantity their love for each other and i don't look at the end of season 2 only like if nothing happened but that.
for me they both loved each other in the same way and they showed it into different times.

i showed you that depending of what moment of the story you take in consideration one could say that one moment Liz loved more while in the other Max loved more. One moment Liz had more faith while in the other moment Max had more faith. It always depends on what moment we take in consideration

also, the core point of everything i said, is, again, that we can't look at what happened to Max in season 2 using Liz's POV.
we have to look at HIS POV that was completely different than hers.
your "theory" can't be applied on Max's example. i could do it if he had know all along what YOU and ME and LIZ knew.

Liz suffered for what happened between M&T and Max suffered for what Liz did to him in season 2. true or not, her manipulations still affected him and still hurt him. it was inevitable. and she herself knew it.
Liz wasn't a doormat for me. she was everything but one. otherwise we can say that other times Max was a doormat too.



Sin wrote: I just don't see the point of going into a relationship when you are still hung up on another person.
it's called try to survive
otherwise all the world would be full of catholic priests and nuns
I can understand why he was with Tess. However I would still think that Max wouldn't just sleep with someone else (Tess) when he was in love with someone else (Liz). I don't think that's a Max trait. It's not so much about what Liz did to him for me but how he was able to sleep with Tess when he was still for the most part in love with Liz. I think that's the problem.
sex is no more important than other things for me and i made it clear.
then, again, you have to look at *when* all of this happened and the state he was.
people are not perfect, they can't be. this is a fact. we're not robots.
he did a mistake. it was his fault, it was "destiny's" fault. it was the circumstance fault.
everyone into his situation could have made the same mistake.

it doesn't devalue his love for Liz. He betrayed more himself and his feelings. he did a mistake that he payed.. a lot.
again, if he had know the truth then things could have been totally different.

i will never agree with you because for me the very bases of your theory are all wrong and can't be applied on *this* example. i could apply them if Max didn't live what he lived, if Tess wasn't Tess, if he wasn't Zan's clone, if no one ever forced him to be who he didn't want to be, if he had know what Liz was really doing and his Liz wasn't completely different than ours..

unfortunately his situation wasn't so simple like you make it seems.



What about his love for her? Wouldn't that be enough.
it was enough till that moment then it was just too much for him
he was into his personal alien+human crisis and again his Liz was a fake one. he didn't know the truth and he couldn't understand her completely without the truth. he was too influenced by the idea he had of Liz in that moment. plus, he wasn't strong enough to get over his feelings.

into a different situation her love for him wasn't enough either. many times Liz just did escape from their problems like in destiny or changes
she didn't always believe in them when he told her that she was the important thing and they could work together for their relationship

again, they were human. they had fears, vulnerabilities. they couldn't always do the right thing and choice!
To atleast hear her out and try to understand. To atleast give her a chance to prove that something was wrong? All Liz was asking for was a small bit of help and Max couldn't give it to her. It's not about the real Liz or the lying Liz. It's about what Max felt for her and ultimately how he didn't love her enough to even try to understand where she was coming from.
but you want him to be always perfect and always there for everyone and for her. but it is not possible
again, Max is not perfect and he's human like everyone.
he couldn't think about everything, he couldn't be always reasonable. he couldn't always follow his heart.
he was in denial. he felt hurt, angry. he couldn't accept her truth. she betrayed him (for him) he was sick of it all. he couldn't bear it anymore.


She told Max her fears about Max embracing his alien side and finding out that he didn't love her anymore. Atleast that's what I got out of the speech.
because you're not Max and you knew the truth!
but remember that Max was talking with the same Liz who told him all those things in TEOTW. she just confirmed that idea.

How this flew over Max's head i'll never know.
to me, it made perfect sense because again, he couldn't know what YOU knew at the point.
Max's reality was totally different. and everything confirmed it to him. even We're a family and their scene in the eraser room

Max did let her go because it was what *she* wanted. she wanted a normal boyfriend, she wanted safety, she wanted normal, she wanted things that Max couldn't give her and he understood it.
It's obvious that Liz was saying all of this stuff because it was how she truely felt.
obvious for us because we knew what she did.
for Max? totally another story
for him it was obvious that Liz confirmed him that they couldn't be together and she didn't want to be with him.
That just furthered proved that for her she was doing the right thing by stepping aside.
and everything just proved that for him he was doing the right thing by stepping aside letting her live her normal life because for him he could just ruin her life and she didn't want to die for him

again i don't understand why when Liz gave up about them it was for love while when Max gave up for the same reason it was for a lack of enough love.


Because he was cruel to her in ITBAITL and BIY. Why would she be warm and receptive to him? Especially since he attacked her various times in those two episodes.
i may remind you that off the menù happened in the story BEFORE ITBAITL and BIY
the episode aired later because (if i'm not wrong) a real abduction happened in the usa.
anyway, Maria said it at the beginning of the episode. the title "off the menù" isn't casual.

actually the episode showed where Heart of Mine came from and why, suddenly, Max started to do memory retrievals with Tess and Liz was seeing Sean.
the episode also showed the first hints of Tess manipulations/mindwarps.

since it seems that this kind of things are so important for you, then we can say that Liz was the first one who started to be cold toward him even before ITBAITL and BIY

what he was supposed to do?
I don't see how he didn't see that she was hurting.
she didn't see that he was hurting too. and i can understand why for both of them.

and i could say that i don't see how she couldn't see that he was still living the alternative reality she herself created and that for him she still was the the fake Liz she created, the one who broke his heart and slept with Kyle.
Liz needed Max. She needed a friend and he wasn't there for her.
and she wasn't there for him when he needed her in destiny and the beginning of season 2.
they both had their own reasons but you justify Liz's actions no matter why
i don't want to justify Max's actions. i'm just showing that they weren't so different, after all. and that if you fault him for something then someone could do it for Liz too and just like you don't care about his reasons and feelings and you don't see when he did something thinking that it was the best for her , other people could do the same thing with Liz. the results doesn't change: the both hurt each other and they both did their own mistakes.



Alex was, obviously, a priority for her more than Max
Liz wanted Max to believe in her and to help her. She wanted to include him. It was Max who walked away and when he came back she accepted him without hesitation.
yes. But Alex and the truth was still a priority more than Max and their friendship

i'm not the one who brought this theory about priorities here. i'm just showing you that even Liz didn't have a choice and it's perfectly normal.
Alex needed her not Max.

That his fear was greater then Liz's need for his support and help?
you want him to be the perfect boy (and he was a teenager!) who could always do the right thing for everyone and always think about everythjing but himself and how he felt and it's not possible. he couldn't always put his feelings aside.
He was in denial, he was hurt and angry. he had his limits
kill him for that! i don't know what i can say!

I guess that's just yet another difference between both of them. He was willing to end their friendship because he was unwilling to see reason. That's a different perspective. I never saw it that way before.
it seems to me that your goal, here, is to prove at any cost that Max was the only one wrong while Liz was an angel.
this stopped to be the discussion it was before

i guess that i made you hate him even more than before :lol: to this point i doubt that you will ever try to understand him anymore.

i'm sorry, i didn't want this to be a war between who is right or wrong using Max and Liz.





Again she didn't push away their friendship. She pushed away the possibility of a romantic relationship.
for Max she destroyed everything and even before that episode.
but she couldn't deal with anything more at that point.
so Max.


I think her declaration showed it. I'm sorry but she basically just spelled out her entire feelings for him to see.
again, from Max's POV he understood everything but the truth from that speech.
if you can't see why i don't know what i can say more. :|
i'm repeating the same things over and over

He wasn't soothing her fears he was eradicating them and showing her that she was right.
with what he knew (and, again _-_, not YOU and Liz) she wasn't soothing his fears either (i don't want to die for you, i want to date a normal boy, i don't want to be with you this is an illusion) and she just confirmed them.. again.


Liz didn't know that.
and Max didn't know many things either so if you understand Liz you should be able to understand Max especially since he basically thought that Liz was like another person.
he didn't know that she still loved him and everything was a big lie. he didn't know that she didn't care about normal and she could have died for him. he didn't know that she didn't feel that he was ruining her life because with him she couldn't grow up and she couldn't be safe.



She believed in Max.
see, i don't disagree.
but, again, Max didn't know what you knew so he couldn't ever get your same impression from her words and actions. especially with what he believed she wanted.

I don't think it's the same.
what? he couldn't break down?
he never suffered?
can you honestly say that it wasn't his personal break down? :shock:

if you really think so then we really watched another show.

and no, alien things are irrelevant. i don't take them in consideration. i can see that he was into a bad state and personal crisis even without putting in the picture the alien influence


They weren't in a relationship. They weren't in a relationship at all. They ended it in Destiny.
so it was ok for Liz to move on with Kyle and sleep with him but not for Max? and Max couldn't even be angry about it the way Liz was angry about what happened between M&T. Max had to forgive her and to be her friend at any cost.

i missed something here.

If that's true then that's conditional love.
:lol: :lol:

so, let me understand. he should understand her even when he doesn't know her? this is a real Liz's worshiper vision
people must love her even when she isn't the real one and they don't know it.

i don't think that you really got the point of what i said.

I think that's what Liz did for Max multiple times even with less.
[/quote]

again, and what Max did in season2?
even with the Liz he saw, the fake one created by herself who betrayed him and told him horrible things he still tried to be friends with her

also, the Max Liz knew wasn't a fake one created by himself.
I don't see it the same way. Liz was out of control. She was a danger to herself and others. Max wasn't out of control. He had full control of everything he was doing and he chose to push everyone away from him and then he chose to end his relationship with Liz and ruin his relationship with Isabel. Then he chose to sleep with Tess.
Totally different situation.
so what? one can be into a personal crisis and person break down only if he's out of control?
and it's not that Max wasn't IMO
his behavior was totally OOC.

also, if you really believe it then i may remind you that Liz wasn't out of control in destiny and the whole summer before season 2 when Max needed her.


What alien influence? If he did have an alien influence inside of him then they did a horrid job of portraying it.
it's not that this is my delusional idea, you know. :roll: the writers confirmed it too and they wrote the episode and the story so i guess that they can understand what was happening to Max since he was their creation.
he was more Zan than Max. plus a messed Max.
just because he didn't the crazy things Michel and Isabel did in season 3 it doesn't mean that his alien side never influenced him
it can just mean that he could handle it better or that it was showed into a more subtle way mixed with his personal crisis.


destiny, heart of mine, the episodes after Alex's death. maybe departure too.
changes.

Changes wasn't about Max. It was about taking care of herself because no one could help her and she was out of control. It wasn't about not loving Max or not believing in him or his abilities. He couldn't help her. She needed to get away and get everything together.
Liz did escape. Max provided her an alternative in order to work together. he wanted to help her. but she left. and i understand why
the point is that both of them had their own moments where they had to think about their self or they weren't strong enough to see other solutions.




Liz destroyed the Liz he loved
Conditional love.
again, you didn't get my point. or maybe you just don't want to because you're too much in the Max's hate that you see no more than this.



Every time I read this phrase it just makes me think more and more that there are qualifciations and limits to his love. If Liz doesn't act a certaint way or if Liz isn't perfect then he'll stop loving her. Or if there is the slightest hiccup or problem he won't love her as fully or as much as he once did. I have no doubt in my mind that Liz loved Max as much as she did in seasons one and three the same way she loved him in season two. Her love was an all consuming and unconditional love.
it's not that.

but why Liz could not believe in him and like him when he acted like an ass to her and told her horrible things while Max had to love her at any cost no matter what she did to him? even when he didn't even know her anymore because she didn't tell him the truth and he believed that she was a bitch
you want him to forgive, understand, and love her no matter what she did to him but not the same when it's about Max.
you can understand why Liz was angry with him at one point but you don't want to understand why Max was angry with her into another moment. that's crazy.

when it's about Max---> conditional love
when it's about Liz--> he was an ass to her why she should be a doormat?

and again, that was the only real occasion where Max didn't believe in her. for the rest of season 2 he acted like a doormat (again, no one of them ever was one but i'm using your logic) because no matter what she did too him and the horrible things she told him he still loved her, still believed in her (see the "transcendent" scene in xmas carol) still tried to be her friend and wanted her friendship (we're a family and other scenes like when he wanted to protect her from who abducted Leanne)



LIz didn't see that. Liz didn't know that.
just like Max didn't know tons of other things too that you take for granted!

Everything for the past year was telling her that Max and Tess were supposed to be together. Even Max himself in HOM.
everything for the past year was telling him that he was supposed to be with Tess and him and Liz weren't supposed to be together. Even Liz herself... more than once.

he needed *Liz*. his destiny with the blond thing is irrelevant. it doesn't change who he loved and needed.
Again Liz didn't know this. She thought she was doing what was best for him because she loved him.

it seems to me that you understand the "doesn't know" thing only when it's about Liz
Max didn't know this either. He thought that he was doing the right thing be letting her go because he loved her and he didn't want to ruin her life.


I meant he didn't go after her in Destiny. He just let her run away then things were too late.
you said that Liz left because she didn't want be an obstacle between him and his destiny and she loved him. and i don't disagree.
Max let her run away (for that moment) because after all he always knew that he could have ruined her life and he had nothing to offer especially not in that moment where they just told him that his life was even more a mess than before. he respected her and he gave her some time. he didn't force her.

for some people he should have followed and stopped her there. for some she shouldn't have run away in the first place. the thing is that neither of us were them and they both did what they felt that it was right in that moment. for some people they were both right because Max gave her time and respected her and he didn't act as the selfish guy who didn't see how a relationship with him wasn't easy in that moment while Liz gave him time too and she didn't act as the selfish one too because she didn't want him to betray his purpose and destiny for her fault.


I didn't see ITBAITL as a breakdown. If it was supposed to be one they did a really bad job of portraying that to my screen.
i don't know what to say to this :shock:
maybe we just have a different way to see people's feelings. to me it's undeniable that ITBAITL was his final breakdown (and the writers said it too). :shock: and he showed it perfectly.
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Sin
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Re: Who loves who more?? Max or Liz?? and why do you think so??

Post by Sin » Fri Sep 05, 2008 3:07 pm

for you Liz was all innocent and a saint who did no wrong.
It's not that she didn't do things that had consequences. However I think all of her motivations made sense and ultimately were understandable and they weren't wrong desicions or choices. Liz was in a very bad situation a situation in which she showed what was important to her and she made a hard choice because she believed it was the best course of action. She wasn't selfish in her desicions and she wasn't self centered she put various things above her own wants and needs and I think that should be noted. It's not about the fact that Liz was a self sarificing martyr (even though she was) it's that she did the best she could and not once in the entire situation did she think about herself. It was always about what was best for other people and not about indulging in what she wanted to do even at her weakest moments.
for me they were both wrong and they both damaged their relantionship
I don't think Liz's choice or actions were wrong regarding Future Max or her letting Max go. IF she didn't do that then that would mean that she didn't love him fully. She didn't love him enough to do what was best for him, she would only have loved him selfishly like Tess did. To get what she wanted. The fact that Liz let him go for his own good actually makes me believe that she loved him more then anyone else ever could. Her love for Max was the strongest love there is. It wasn't selfish it was all consuming and unconditional. As to Max I do believe that he made very poor desicions in ITBAITL and I do not support the way he acted in that episode. I don't like the way he acted in BIY either. But it happended and I think that was a worse treatment then anything Liz ever did to him. Never did Liz disrepect him the way he did her in that episode. They both hurt eachother no doubt but Max crossed a line with that and I don't see how one can be friends with another person when they don't see another person as an equal and treat people with the respect they deserve.
true or not, her manipulations still affected him and still hurt him.
I agree with that. He was hurt and he was affected. However we cannot blame the fact that Max chose to sleep with Tess on Liz. That was his choice and his alone. You can blame Liz for his feelings and his outlook but we can't blame Max for choosing to sleep with Tess. That was 100% Max and he also took immediate actions to isolate himself and to put himself in the immediate position that he felt vulnerable. He caused the effects of the lonliness and isolation that he felt and his self destruction led to him making a choice that he regretted. I can't say this enough but had Max not chosen to attack Isabel and Liz then he would never have been in a situation where he felt like he couldn't turn to any one. He was the one who took steps to where he felt like he couldn't get support from these places. He burned those bridges that led him to the enemy.
it was inevitable. and she herself knew it.
I don't think it was inevitable. That's why I have a problem with it.
it's called try to survive
That's not survival. That's denial and that's also leading someone on as well as not being truthful to the other person in the relationship.
it was the circumstance fault.
everyone into his situation could have made the same mistake.
This is the part where we will just have to agree to disagree on.
it doesn't devalue his love for Liz.
I don't know if I agree with that. On a rational level perhaps not. Atleast not intellectually. However I still do think that when you are in love with another person and then sleep with another person (especially a person like Max who never thought that sex was just a physical act) I do think there is a betrayal. If not to the other person atleast to yourself and your feelings
it was enough till that moment then it was just too much for him
I would think it would be enough always. Atleast from the type of love that they experienced in season one. Also it's not as if all the moments between them were bad. They had good times as well. It's not as if every moment they saw one another Liz was stabbing his heart out with an ice pick. They were friends too. She also showed many times that she still loved and cared for him. The fact that she was able to astral project herself to New York shows that. As well as the fact that she was there to support him in ARCC. She did care about him and she showed that a few times as well. She was the one he came to when things got too bad for her. CYN and again she wanted to go to prom with him HOM. Those are things that showed that she still cared and that she still wanted a relationship with him even if it wasn't romantic. Liz wasn't this evil bitch that you're painting her to be 24/7. She showed that she cared about him in various other ways. Even dancing with him in Vegas.

I guess my main problem with ITBAITL was that Liz up until that point always supported him and his desicions. In pretty much everything. He could come to her with his problems. She would talk to him. But the one time where she really needed him to see her side and support her he didn't. It's like everything she did in the Pilot forward didn't matter. It's not even a love thing but a friendship thing. After all they went threw she wasn't worth even a second glance or a second look. She wasn't enough for him to atleast see that perhaps maybe there was the smallest of possiblity that something was wrong with Alex's death.
into a different situation her love for him wasn't enough either. many times Liz just did escape from their problems like in destiny or changes
I think there is a pronounced difference though. She wasn't just leaving because she was heartless or whatever. She let him go because it was what was best for him and in Changes Max couldn't even touch her because of the fact that he gave her excruciating pain just by being near her. Even the sound of his voice was too much for Liz to take. He couldn't have helped her. No one could. The only choice she could take was to get away. Or else who knows what could have happened to her or the people around her.
she didn't always believe in them when he told her that she was the important thing and they could work together for their relationship
I think she did love him and she did have faith in him, however she didn't believe that she would be good for him and that she could have been enough to give him what he needed. I think that's the difference. She wanted at all times what was best for him. Her motivation for doing all the things she does is what's best for Max. Except for Ch-Ch-Changes where she was falling apart and she couldn't think about anything else but getting away because she was a danger to everyone.
but you want him to be always perfect and always
I don't think it takes being perfect nor do I think it's asking too much for him to atleast listen to her and her feelings about the matter. I don't think it's too much to ask for him to open his mind to a very real possiblity. I don't think it's to much to ask for when Liz had done it countless times for him at various points in their relationship. She always listened to him and his problems. Look at the Pilot, TH, ARCC, RD, TB, ID, TLAV, ect.

Is it too much to ask for him to just talk to her?
again, Max is not perfect and he's human like everyone.
I understand that. But I don't see how he could have acted so callously to Isabel and Liz in that episode.
again i don't understand why when Liz gave up about them it was for love while when Max gave up for the same reason it was for a lack of enough love.
It's not a lacking of love. I didn't say that it was a lack of love. I completely understand that he wanted to give Liz a normal life. I said that I think he showed a lack of love, care and support in ITBAITL, BIY, Control and various other episodes. But not in HOM. But I do think that he was wrong in kissing Tess when he was on a date with Liz.
i may remind you that off the menù happened in the story BEFORE ITBAITL and BIY
From all the sources that I have collected OTM happened after BIY. From my DVD collection, and wikipedia, ect. But TV.com does say that it was supposed to be before HOM in the trivia section however several scenes had to be reshot so they settled for putting it before the season finale.
and she wasn't there for him when he needed her in destiny
She was there. If i'm not correct please stop me but didn't she risk her life to go up to the goverment facility and save him. Was she not also running away from Pierce and his goverment adgents, did she not dive into a river and sleep in a broken down trailer with him? Did she not offer him support after she saw the torture they inflicted on him? I thought she did. Again Liz did everything to comfort, support and love him the best way she knew how and when it looked like her love was hurting or hindering him she let him go so he could fufill his destiny and do what he had to do. Again it's not as if Max was yelling out to Liz please don't go. I need you. He let her go. He chose the "alien priority".
yes. But Alex and the truth was still a priority more than Max and their friendship
I don't think it was. Max was the one who chose to end their relationship with one another. From her standpoint it was Max who was walking away from her when he wasn't believing in her.
i guess that i made you hate him even more than before
Contray to what you believe. I don't hate him. Again. I only ship the Max/Liz relationships in Roswell. But I do believe that Liz loved him more and that I don't agree with his actions at the end of season two.
Liz did escape. Max provided her an alternative in order to work together.
I'm sorry. Liz couldn't even stand being in the same room as Max. She couldn't even hear his voice because it caused her so much pain. Not just emotional pain. But physical alien electrified agony. She couldn't have stayed with him. Why? Because he was the very problem. Even Kyle knew that. Max couldn't help her. He was the one that was hurting her. Not just emotionally. Her pain was out of control.
but why Liz could not believe in him and like him when he acted like an ass to her and told her horrible things
Liz always believed in him. Even when he was acting like a jerk. She still believed in him.
you want him to forgive, understand, and love her no matter what she did
That's unconditional love. That's no less then what Liz felt for him.
when it's about Liz--> he was an ass to her why she should be a doormat?
This is my point. Liz loved him even when he was an ass.
and again, that was the only real occasion where Max didn't believe in her.
That's arguablly the most important moment where she needed it.
Max didn't know this either. He thought that he was doing the right thing be letting her go because he loved her and he didn't want to ruin her life.
I understand this part. I don't hold him putting her best interests against him. However it when he just blanatly either doesn't care or does something that will deliberately hurt her that I have a problem with (i.e. Control).
maybe we just have a different way to see people's feelings. to me it's undeniable that ITBAITL was his final breakdown
Perhaps I needed more. Because all I saw was him isolating himself for no real apparent reason. I really am lost as to why he acted so biligerant to both Liz and Isabel.

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Re: Who loves who more?? Max or Liz?? and why do you think so??

Post by Coccy » Sat Sep 06, 2008 5:39 am

Sin wrote:
It's not that she didn't do things that had consequences. However I think all of her motivations made sense and ultimately were understandable and they weren't wrong desicions or choices. Liz was in a very bad situation a situation in which she showed what was important to her and she made a hard choice because she believed it was the best course of action. She wasn't selfish in her desicions and she wasn't self centered she put various things above her own wants and needs and I think that should be noted. It's not about the fact that Liz was a self sarificing martyr (even though she was) it's that she did the best she could and not once in the entire situation did she think about herself. It was always about what was best for other people and not about indulging in what she wanted to do even at her weakest moments.
again, just because her motivations were right and she was doing what she believed that it was the right thing it doesn't justify her actions toward Max. it doesn't justify that alternative Liz that did really hurt Max and made him believe that she didn't love him enough to die for him.
again, no matter what her actions still hurt him and influenced his idea of her.

Only when he finally got the truth he could finally understand her. In fact, i don't remember a single time in season 3 where he told her something about FMax and how much she did hurt him in the past year. he totally took all the responsibility
and IMO it wasn't really right because if he wanted he had all the right to be still angry. again, no matter what her reasons were she still did something that was wrong for them and she did hurt him without giving him the chance to know the truth and to find a solution together.
I don't think Liz's choice or actions were wrong regarding Future Max or her letting Max go.
and it's where we totally disagree.
because for me her actions and her choice was wrong for Max and their relationship and she damaged what was between them. she had her own responsibility and she knew it. i can't avoid it.

using your logic then if the writers would have added that Tess did what she did for a specific purpose in order to save someone then even someone like her could be justified for killing Alex and manipulating Max&Co. It's like killing king-Michael in order to save him
using your logic then Max was justified for his behavior with Isabel or Liz because he wanted to protect them especially Isabel since they four of them had to stay together and Max and Michael couldn't protect her from an alien enemy if she was far away from roswell. their enemies could have used it as a way to attack Isabel or the others since Max and Michael couldn't be in the same place at the same time.

i'm not saying that Liz was wrong. I'm just showing you that everything is not black or white and sometimes you can do something very wrong with the best intentions.
in real life many mistakes are made with the best intentions.
also, looking at the outcome, it doesn't seem to me that Liz and FMax were so right because after all Alex died at 17 years old and Tess almost killed Max&Co too. so i guess that she wasn't supposed to help them




I agree with that. He was hurt and he was affected. However we cannot blame the fact that Max chose to sleep with Tess on Liz. That was his choice and his alone. You can blame Liz for his feelings and his outlook but we can't blame Max for choosing to sleep with Tess.
and i agree. correct me but it's not what i said, in the first place ;)
still, what Liz did to him is something that inevitably made his example different than other examples of guys who slept with a woman without really loving them.
He was the one who took steps to where he felt like he couldn't get support from these places. He burned those bridges that led him to the enemy.
but i also believe that it was both sides and it's not that everyone helped him. really helped him
again, even Liz couldn't pretend to get his support and friendship after she told him that horrible phrase in Cry your name.

for Max it was like if she was asking him to admit that it was his fault
That's not survival. That's denial and that's also leading someone on as well as not being truthful to the other person in the relationship.
I don't know if I agree with that. On a rational level perhaps not. Atleast not intellectually. However I still do think that when you are in love with another person and then sleep with another person (especially a person like Max who never thought that sex was just a physical act) I do think there is a betrayal. If not to the other person atleast to yourself and your feelings

correct me if i'm wrong. so for you Max didn't love Liz enough because he slept with Tess even if he still loved Liz enough.. oh wait. :? i missed something :?:


This is the part where we will just have to agree to disagree on.
then lucky you because you're able to say, without a single doubt, that you will never do the same thing if you will be in the same situation. personally i'm not able.



I would think it would be enough always.
into a world full of programmed to be perfect robots without human feelings.. i agree.

I guess my main problem with ITBAITL was that Liz up until that point always supported him and his desicions.
and Max no?
until her phrase in cry your name he supported her too. he just didn't find her theory soo believable (and he wasn't the only one. the theory that Alex killed himself was very believable to me too, if i didn't know what i knew) and she ate him just because he doubted along with the others. just because he used a "maybe" when she gave him only two tickets vs Valenti's reportage full of proofs against Alex (because evil Tess really made it seems that he killed himself especially with the accident she created) even if they didn't believe into a suicide it was still possible that it was an accident.
if i didn't know what i knew i could have thought that Liz was acting like that because she was too hurt and she couldn't accept the truth so she wanted to prove something at any cost. after all, Alex was her best friend and she was biased. even Maria didn't believe in her, at the beginning.
the first reactions to her theory were logic for me especially for people who didn't know what she knew and what we knew, especially for people who knew that Liz was biased because Alex was her friend and it made sense that she couldn't accept his death.
In pretty much everything. He could come to her with his problems. She would talk to him. But the one time where she really needed him to see her side and support her he didn't. It's like everything she did in the Pilot forward didn't matter.
firstly, it's not true that he never was there for her. big assumption that goes against canon. otherwise i dreamed episodes like "leaving normal" or significant others or changes. that were the only other times she needed him outside cry your name.
and even in cry your name he supported her at the beginning calling for her more than once and he was the only one who made her feel better making her smile and giving her something to eat. the only one she went to.
then like into every relationship they both did a mistake in the last scene where the group split. Max because he found believable Valenti's theory and Liz because she chose the wrong way in order to make him, them, understand.
i'm sorry but Liz wasn't completely innocent either and we can't see only what we want to see like if the rest didn't happen.
and notice that i never said who was right or wrong between them. to me they both weren't and were at the same time.




It's not even a love thing but a friendship thing. After all they went threw she wasn't worth even a second glance or a second look. She wasn't enough for him to atleast see that perhaps maybe there was the smallest of possiblity that something was wrong with Alex's death.
i don't understand why he had to be the only one. a relationship no matter if it's love or friendship is both sides like a telephone.
Just like Max should have tried to understand what you said it's also true that Liz should have tried to understand why Max couldn't believe in her theory, what was his fear and how from his POV she was still the same Liz who did to him what she did from TEOTW on.

see, my point and my opinion doesn't change.
i can see both sides and for me they were both wrong. it was both their fault if they found their self in that situation.
they were both stupid. they were both human.
I think there is a pronounced difference though.

we can find tons of differences and justifications. every character had a justification and a reason.
but the result doesn't change.

He couldn't have helped her. No one could. The only choice she could take was to get away. Or else who knows what could have happened to her or the people around her.
well, it seems to me that she came back after Max died and she finally realized that she couldn't be without him no matter what and who
and it's not that her powers stopped just because of it, like we saw in 4aaab
so we can say that there was another solution and alternative and she herself used it when she understood that she didn't need to be away from Max.

Liz was living a sorta of ritual of passage and thank God she wasn't really dying. she was just changing. she just needed time.





I think she did love him and she did have faith in him, however she didn't believe that she would be good for him and that she could have been enough to give him what he needed.
and the same goes for Max.

I don't think it takes being perfect nor do I think it's asking too much for him to atleast listen to her and her feelings about the matter. I don't think it's too much to ask for him to open his mind to a very real possiblity. I don't think it's to much to ask for when Liz had done it countless times for him at various points in their relationship. She always listened to him and his problems. Look at the Pilot, TH, ARCC, RD, TB, ID, TLAV, ect.
true. but i don't think that it was soo much to ask from her to REMEMBER that Max didn't know what she knew and that he was still believing into that big lie she herself created. just like i don't think that it was soo much to ask from her to understand that her phrase in cry your name hurt him a lot and awakened his worst fear
Is it too much to ask for him to just talk to her?
it isn't. but again it's both sides. and again, you can't always use logic and follow your heart. sometimes people are into their bad moment and they fail to understand what is taken for granted by us. Liz not only didn't understand how he felt (in departure they both understood each other) she totally forgot about the lie he was still living.

and it's not that M&L are the only examples here. every character lived it. every character was selfish. even more than M&L if you ask me.


It's not a lacking of love. I didn't say that it was a lack of love. I completely understand that he wanted to give Liz a normal life. I said that I think he showed a lack of love, care and support in ITBAITL, BIY, Control and various other episodes. But not in HOM. But I do think that he was wrong in kissing Tess when he was on a date with Liz.
again, i'm lost here. was that lack of love or not?

From all the sources that I have collected OTM happened after BIY. From my DVD collection, and wikipedia, ect. But TV.com does say that it was supposed to be before HOM in the trivia section however several scenes had to be reshot so they settled for putting it before the season finale.

OTM is placed in order after BIY but the story of that episode happened in the whole story before that episode.
even Maria said it

Maria: Michael, Liz and I have found Alex’s killer, or did we? Something happened a few weeks ago -- before Max started to remember Tess and Liz started to get closer to Sean and before … Alex died -- before any of this. I just, I didn’t think it was important to tell you at the time, but if you watch closely, it contains the key to everything…

i believe that it's clear :?

i don't know if several scenes had to be re shot or not. i find it irrelevant because the writers didn't want it to appear as a part of the story happened after BIY and they made it clear with Maria's intro. Point is that the episode still showed something happened before that whole crap. they changed the order of the airing, the order of the episodes but not the order of events in the story.

again, since for you it seems so important then it seems that Liz was the one who started to be cold toward him without a reason even before the whole crap after Alex died. we can say that her behavior in that episode was another detail that influenced his behavior toward her later in the other episodes.



She was there.
she wasn't there after what happened in the aftermath of what happened to him. she wasn't there for him the whole summer after what happened and his parents sent him to a psychologist

I don't think it was. Max was the one who chose to end their relationship with one another. From her standpoint it was Max who was walking away from her when he wasn't believing in her.
again, i disagree. from what i saw they were both responsible


Contray to what you believe. I don't hate him. Again. I only ship the Max/Liz relationships in Roswell. But I do believe that Liz loved him more and that I don't agree with his actions at the end of season two.
i don't agree with many of Liz's actions too but i never said that Max loved her more just for that (even if using your logic i could do it using other examples like the flashes in chant down babylon. but i should forget everything but that detail like you forget everything but that episode from season 2 )
i also believe that the topic asked who loved more not who was the stronger one between them. to me they're two different things

if the topic had asked who is the stronger one between them then i could easily reply that Liz is the stronger one. the real warrior. the one who was wearing the pants.
then, just because she was stronger than Max many times it doesn't mean that she loved him more just for that.
they loved each other in the same way and showed it different times.

i also believe that a puzzle is nothing without all its pieces. in order to see the picture in the puzzle i need all the pieces or at least most of them.
a piece of the puzzle without the other pieces is nothing. if i look at a single piece it can seem like any possible image, shape, form. only when I collect all the pieces I can really see what really is in the puzzle.



I'm sorry. Liz couldn't even stand being in the same room as Max. She couldn't even hear his voice because it caused her so much pain. Not just emotional pain. But physical alien electrified agony. She couldn't have stayed with him. Why? Because he was the very problem. Even Kyle knew that. Max couldn't help her. He was the one that was hurting her. Not just emotionally. Her pain was out of control.
Max wasn't the real problem otherwise she couldn't return back to home with him after he died and came back. Max was the problem because Liz made him the problem, emotionally. then, after he died and she understood that she really couldn't live without him, Max wasn't the material problem anymore and she was ok with him into her presence.

if you ask me i have my theory about what was happening to Liz because, casually, the same alien green energy seemed useful when she touched Max/Clayton. like if she was able to make Max's soul stronger, able to "awake" Max there. i've always thought that a part of her sickness was created by her physiological and emotional state while the other part was the change and maybe something even more profound than what we believed. Maybe it was the first glimpse of her clairvoyance and her body was telling her, along with other things, that Max would have been in danger. and it's what really happened. i don't know it it was so casual that he died after her change and when she saved him the sickness seemed to stop.



Liz always believed in him. Even when he was acting like a jerk. She still believed in him.
and it's where we have to disagree, again.
If Liz believed in him then she did a horrible work into showing it.
not that i blame her. who could believe in that Max?

you want him to forgive, understand, and love her no matter what she did
That's unconditional love. That's no less then what Liz felt for him.
this is not unconditional love. this is love the body but not the person that is into it

using your logic then i could say that for you they loved each other just for the body and not for the person inside it while for me despite the fact that i can believe in love at first sight i also believe that Max and Liz loved each other because they *knew* each other. they loved each other because they loved their souls, the people they were. their personalities. the way they really were.
they loved the real person not another version of them.

i doubt that Liz would have loved him if he always was the Max that he was into those episodes. i doubt that she would have loved him if he was a killer or something like that. I also doubt that Max loved Liz just because of her pretty face, i don't think that he could have loved her if she was like Tess for example otherwise he would have loved Tess no?
otherwise why choose a specific person between tons, in the first place?
they could have loved tons of other people but if they chose each other there must be a reason, i correct, more than a reason.
it can be love at first sight but they loved the person that they knew too not just an immaterial idea or the box that contained the soul/character.

The Liz she created in season 2 wasn't the real one. it's not that he did lose faith into the real Liz. he did lose his faith into a Liz that didn't exist, in the first place. if that was the real Liz and FMax didn't exist and everything wasn't a lie then you wouldn't have loved her too because, correct if i'm wrong, just like you loved Max the way he was in season 1 and not the end of season 2 you would have loved Liz for the way she was in season 1 and not in that moment.

and it's not that Max stopped to love her, in the first place (you're the first one who said it. for you it's the whole problem and not the problem at the same time for a confusing theory that i still don't understand *blush*) . but he couldn't always *understand* a Liz that he didn't know, in the first place.


This is my point. Liz loved him even when he was an ass.
we used the word "love" but it wasn't really about love. not completely

i doubt that you're saying that Liz would have loved him in the same way if he was like.. Michael for example. then why not love Michael?
but she loved Max not Michael. why?
i doubt that Liz would have loved him if he wasn't that Max with that soul and who did and said all those things to her. the Max with that character. the Max she knew and loved. and it wasn't an imaginary Max. it was the real one.

they didn't randomly choose each other.



I understand this part. I don't hold him putting her best interests against him. However it when he just blanatly either doesn't care or does something that will deliberately hurt her that I have a problem with (i.e. Control).
the problem here is that he didn't just blatantly didn't care or hurt her deliberately, in the first place.
episodes like control, watched from the start till the very end, proved it. again, a puzzle is not complete without all its pieces. otherwise all the people are evil incarnates, Liz too into other occasions.
you use control as an example when in the end it proved how much he didn't know what he was doing, he didn't want to hurt her on purpose. he didn't even realize that his plan was stupid and not realistic and he couldn't save his son and return back to Liz into a day or two. he realized the mistake and it devastated him to the point that he did what he did in the end of the episode.
If Max wasn't so devastated and he didn't care he wouldn't have cried and he wouldn't have feel so miserable

Perhaps I needed more. Because all I saw was him isolating himself for no real apparent reason. I really am lost as to why he acted so biligerant to both Liz and Isabel.
i believe that i already showed what leaded him to that crisis. i guess that i see it while you not.
Image
"You're what would bring me back.
Even if my molecules were spread out from here to whatever galaxy my home planet is in,
that wouldn't stop me. All my molecules would be like little homing pigeons.
They'd all zoom to you, and then I'd re-form." - Max Evans; Roswell High - The Watcher
Dreamer Idolatry - M&L community || My arts

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