Who loves who more?? Max or Liz?? and why do you think so??

Love Max & Liz? Then the Dreamer place is where you want to be.

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Re: Who loves who more?? Max or Liz?? and why do you think so??

Postby Cocogurl » Wed Sep 03, 2008 7:12 am

Why would the mods close this thread down. We aren't fighting or calling each other names or being mean in any way. We're just having a good debate about one of the best tv shows around. :lol: A show that sadly isn't around anymore. :(

Anyways, coccy, you didn't get what I was saying. For starters, I am a total dreamer. I absolutely love Max and Liz. They're the reason I fell in love with the show. :D I'm just not going to excuse every single thing Max did and then persecute Liz for her mistakes. I do sympathize with everything Max went through and honestly, if I were Liz, I would've tried to get over Max sleeping with Tess because they weren't together and he wasn't cheating on her. And the same could be said for Liz. If she had slept with Kyle, she wouldn't have been cheating on Max either.

And I can sympathize with Max for most of season 2 right up until ITLAITB. Now I can forgive him for not wanting to believe Liz at first. Alex just died and Liz probably shouldn't have brought it up the way that she did, but after that, I give Max no more excuses. I never expected Max to be perfect. Nobody is. He should've been a better friend than he was at the end of season 2, at least for Alex. But he was abusive to Isabel AND threatened her, and then gave Liz an ultimatem, real friends wouldnt do that. He should've at least tried to listen to Liz instead of dismissing her. And if he had listened to Liz, they probably would've found who Alex's killer was much sooner and they probably could've been spared all the crap that happened in season 3.

And he DID lose faith in Liz because Maria may have not believed Liz about Alex at first, but she came around eventually. Even Isabel tried to bring up the possibility that maybe Alex's death wasn't natural. And no, Max is not an adult, he's just a teenager, but so is Liz and Maria and Isabel, but they started to come around. And when Max gave Liz that ultimatum, it wasn't about protecting the group it was about control. Nothing was going exactly the way he wanted, and gave her that ultimatum so he could be in control again. It was selfish and wrong.

And as season 3, Max totally in the wrong and Liz was right. Liz was a wonderful girlfriend who supported and tried to help him find his son even when he was taking her for granted and disregarding her feelings. He was even going ruin Cal's life and leave the planet without even telling Liz! And there is no execuse for that. The only mistakes that Liz ever made was when she walked away from Max in Destiny, and in Changes when she yelled at Max about sleeping with Tess, cause like I said before, he wasn't cheating on Liz when he did that, though he should've used protection at least. Liz did nothing wrong in season 2, especially at the end of season 2. She just finally stopped putting Max above everything else in life and decided to get justice for her best friends death. I would've done the exact same thing she did.

Wow, I can't believe I ranted this long. :lol: My point is, I sympathize with both Max and Liz's POV and I understand that they both went through a lot. I just understand some of Liz's decisions more than I understand some of Max's. But I love them both and I'm so happy that they got married because they definitely deserved a happy ending. Man, I miss this show so much! :cry:

And by the way, if there are any typos, please forgive me. It's late and I'm really tired. :lol:

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Re: Who loves who more?? Max or Liz?? and why do you think so??

Postby jbangelo » Wed Sep 03, 2008 7:15 am

Coccy wrote:anyway i'm surprised that the mods didn't close this thread yet

I am watching it. ;) Just keep it civil. As long as I don't see any yelling or name calling, and no one complains about it, it'll stay open.
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Re: Who loves who more?? Max or Liz?? and why do you think so??

Postby Coccy » Wed Sep 03, 2008 8:38 am

jbangelo wrote:
Coccy wrote:anyway i'm surprised that the mods didn't close this thread yet

I am watching it. ;) Just keep it civil. As long as I don't see any yelling or name calling, and no one complains about it, it'll stay open.


i said it because in the past it seemed that some threads were closed for less because of the rules about this being a dreamer board and not one with haters no matter if they're dreamers too :lol:



Cocogurl wrote:Anyways, coccy, you didn't get what I was saying. For starters, I am a total dreamer. I absolutely love Max and Liz. They're the reason I fell in love with the show. :D I'm just not going to excuse every single thing Max did and then persecute Liz for her mistakes. I do sympathize with everything Max went through and honestly, if I were Liz, I would've tried to get over Max sleeping with Tess because they weren't together and he wasn't cheating on her. And the same could be said for Liz. If she had slept with Kyle, she wouldn't have been cheating on Max either.


it's not that i want to excuse every single thing Max did and then persecute Liz for her mistakes.
i'm just saying that they were both wrong and no one was innocent. that we should apply the same judgment on every character not just Max. and sorry but it's not what is happening here. this discussion is very contradictory into more than a point.

it seems to me that Liz is being justified here for every single thing she did and Max persecute for his mistakes.
what is wrong for Max is not for Liz. what's ok for Liz is not for Max.
only one mistake can delete what Max aways did. what you accused Max of doing toward Liz (and it isn't even what he did)

also, i don't believe that one loved the other one more just because one slept with the enemy and got her pregnant. just because one wasn't strong into a certain moment.
because they both proved with more valid proofs that they mean everything to each other and i totally refuse to quantify their love for each other like that based only on a mistake made into a time of their life where they were both into a bad state especially the one who did it. i don't find it this simple.

and in all honesty i find this thread anti-Dreamer because to me a real dreamer can't be able to say who love more between them because the foundation of their relationship, at least for me, is that they both loved each other immensely and it wasn't a one side relationship like others. this made them unique.
to me, who is able to say that Liz loved Max more or Max loved her more is not really a Dreamer but more either a Liz worshiper or a Max worshiper.
sorry but this is my opinion and how i feel about this topic
to me this is the real sci-fi :lol:

sorry, it's like asking me who i love more between my parents :lol:






anyway....

i guess that this is where our opinion totally differ:

And as season 3, Max totally in the wrong and Liz was right.


and
Liz did nothing wrong in season 2, especially at the end of season 2.


i can't agree. because to me Liz was wrong too. and because she knew it too she "forgave" Max in season 3.
Liz lied and manipulated Max and with him they payed the price of each other mistakes.

because she wanted to save the world it doesn't mean that what she did in order to do it was right especially for Max
and, again, it was amazing that after everything she did to him (from his pov and what she made him believe) he could still be her friend, he could still have hopes. he could "await" a year before falling into Tess' arms who was stalking and manipulating him taking advantage of his misery.

also, Max had no one. he had no friends. it's very telling that he went to Liz when in a roswell xmas carol the ghost was torturing him. but when alex died he couldn't. no wonder why Tess was able to be the vulture she was.
it's not that i don't understand Liz and how she felt. i do. but i understand Max too.
i won't devalue his feelings, his fears, his problems, just because Liz wanted to save the world.

he did a mistake and his behavior was despicable but so Liz's.
then we have to look at *when* and *why* they did what they did. instead people always do it with Liz only and never, really, Max too.
and then the few people that try to understand Max too always go against Liz turning it into a "it's all Liz's fault" fest ...and i have to defend her :lol:

you're doing the same thing.
you say that people justify Max actions and then they persecute Liz for her mistakes but don't you realize that you're doing the same?



as for Max being abusive. Liz was too.
look at her behavior into those episodes.. she seemed OOC too for me.
at one point it seemed that she was using Alex as a way to show her resentment toward Max because he couldn't see what she couldn't tell him.

i really don't think that her problem was just that Max didn't believe into her theory. i believe that her resentment was about more than that. starting from M&T kiss at the prom. not to mention her resentment toward *FMax* who put her in that situation.





And he DID lose faith in Liz because Maria may have not believed Liz about Alex at first, but she came around eventually. Even Isabel tried to bring up the possibility that maybe Alex's death wasn't natural. And no, Max is not an adult, he's just a teenager, but so is Liz and Maria and Isabel, but they started to come around.


but Liz didn't to them what she did to Max since destiny
and Maria and Isabel weren't the ones who touched Alex's death body and couldn't heal him. Maria and Isabel weren't the ones who healed Liz in the pilot starting it all, they weren't the ones who could feel responsible of Alex's death if an alien had killed them.
they weren't the ones Liz accused of being responsible.
maybe only Isabel, a bit. In fact she was angry too, at the beginning. anyway for Max it was worse and he really felt responsible of Alex death and he was the only one who touched his corpse and he was the only healer of the group

these aren't details.


And when Max gave Liz that ultimatum, it wasn't about protecting the group it was about control. Nothing was going exactly the way he wanted, and gave her that ultimatum so he could be in control again. It was selfish and wrong.


just like Liz's behavior (and Isabel's) Liz was controlling and "selfish" as well especially when she made the decision for him and she didn't tell him the truth about FMax.

she wanted to go, alone, into a country she didn't know using all her money
how Max was supposed to protect her and their secret if she didn't care?

i understand Liz and i surely find her reasons more valid then Max's. still i can clearly see they were both angry toward each other, they were both hurt for their own reasons and they weren't using logic.


also, Max is the leader. if he's the leader then he must be one. always.
the group chose to accept this role when it was good for them, when it was easy for them. but they can't use the leader card only when they like it or when it's useful for them because someone else will be responsible of what they don't want to decide. Isabel is the big example of how hypocritical they all were. when it was about controlling Michael and general decisions or "so what about now Max?" Max was the leader and they had to obey him especially Michael. but then when it was about her and her stupid decisions (in season 3 too with Jesse) then Max wasn't the leader anymore. For the most part Michael was more coherent, at least :lol:

they should have stayed a group that made the decision together without putting only on one the responsibility of everything.
they were all naive, they didn't even know what it mean for them to be a leader and Max didn't really know how to be one.
they all failed not just one.
the truth is that Max was the leader of a group that sucked big time because they were incapable to be a group with a leader, in the first place.
thank God, they learned the lesson and they started to be a group again, later.






And as season 3, Max totally in the wrong and Liz was right.


what's was totally wrong in him?
and it's not the he forced her or something. Liz made the decision to stand by her man on her own even when he didn't want. and she was the one who ignored her feelings pretending that everything was perfect. or maybe she just gave to them more time and she understood what was the priority

in love there's no rule for me. not at all.
it's not that we have to quantify the number of attentions we receive into a certain period of time. not to mention that when the one you love has a big problem like Max's it's understandable that if you really love him you put aside your feelings and you analyze them later when it will be possible.
and it's not that Max was totally insensitive. it's just that he couldn't do everything at once. but when he realized the mistake he was never beyond offering apologies
i also believe that a part of him, before changes, knew very well how she felt but things between them were so fragile that he pretended that everything was perfect (just like Liz) because he didn't want to lose her...again (just like Liz) and he was just a boy who was trying to do his best, to be a father and at the same time the same Max who loved that woman and wanted to be with her.


anyway, you should, then, apply the same judgment on Liz's behavior after destiny. Max needed her the most, he did put aside his feelings about the white room and she acted insensitive too (using your own way to see things not mine). he was amazing and so sweet toward her but she ultimately broke his heart into pieces. it was like if she didn't even realize what happened to him, and she saw it.
if you find excuses for Liz you will find them for Max too.
we could say that they showed to love each other more than the other depending on the time of the story you take in consideration.
to me it's always about circumstances and not about who loved more one moment or another.

i don't understand why it's ok for Liz to have her personal crisis but it's not ok for Max.
again, you keep on saying that you don't want him to be perfect but sorry this is exactly what i perceive. Max must be a robot. his own problems are irrelevant here
they're not even taken in consideration like if he was an insensitive boyfriend who lived his happy peaceful life playing with his friends while his girlfriend was hurt. and this isn't the case.




Liz was a wonderful girlfriend


so Max, especially for a boy with a son lost in the space with a murdering bitch who wanted to deliver him to their enemy and he felt that it was all his fault.


My point is, I sympathize with both Max and Liz's POV and I understand that they both went through a lot.


then my english really suck because i don't perceive by what you said that you understand them both
what i've read is just another pro Liz only rant.
Last edited by Coccy on Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:07 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Who loves who more?? Max or Liz?? and why do you think so??

Postby Coccy » Wed Sep 03, 2008 8:48 am

double post >_<
Last edited by Coccy on Wed Sep 03, 2008 8:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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"You're what would bring me back.
Even if my molecules were spread out from here to whatever galaxy my home planet is in,
that wouldn't stop me. All my molecules would be like little homing pigeons.
They'd all zoom to you, and then I'd re-form." - Max Evans; Roswell High - The Watcher
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Re: Who loves who more?? Max or Liz?? and why do you think so??

Postby Coccy » Wed Sep 03, 2008 8:53 am

sorry double post i did a mess
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"You're what would bring me back.
Even if my molecules were spread out from here to whatever galaxy my home planet is in,
that wouldn't stop me. All my molecules would be like little homing pigeons.
They'd all zoom to you, and then I'd re-form." - Max Evans; Roswell High - The Watcher
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Re: Who loves who more?? Max or Liz?? and why do you think so??

Postby Cocogurl » Wed Sep 03, 2008 5:05 pm

Coccy, we're just going to have to agree to disagree. Because once again you've disregarded everything I've said. I totally get what Max went through at the end of Destiny and I completely sided with him there and I sided with both of them after EOTW because it sucked for both of them. But that was one of my favorite episodes 'cause future Max was so hot! :twisted:

But after Alex's death, I give him no more excuses. Because the way he treated he Liz and Isabel was wrong and I'll explain why. Yes, Max had to touch Alex's dead, but that in no way compares to the fact that Alex was Maria and Isabel's best friend and he was Isabel's boyfriend. How can that not mean more? And I don't believe that Isabel was selfish at all, he was just pissed at her because she wasn't doing exactly what he said. In their world, it's okay if Max and Michael break the rules but Isabel even dares to it, it's the end of the world. And if touching Alex's body had effected him so much, then he should've tried harder to believe Liz especially when she presented some of the facts to him at the end of Cry Your Name. A person who's about to commit suicide doesn't go out and buy concert tickets for him and his girlfriend. That just doesn't happen. And Max is not HER king. She doesn't have to do what he says. And if she hadn't investigated Alex's death, it would've been like saying that Alex meant absolutely nothing to their group and that his death would be acceptable because Max, Michael and Isabel's secret is still safe, and if I were Liz, I wouldn't be able to that, not if I knew in my heart that something bad happened to my best friend. And they should be thankful that she didn't do what Max said because if she had, they all might be dead on Antar.

And as for season 3, Max really was in the wrong. You're right, Liz did decide to stand by him and be there for him, and help him find his son, but that doesn't mean she has to be doormat for him. And that's not right, no matter what she decided.

And right now, you're accusing me of doing to Max what you'r doing to Liz right now. :lol: You've been excusing everything Max has done, and been persecuting Liz for pretty much everything. :lol: You (and many others) haven't been able to say at least on good thing about Liz in her defense.

For me, it has nothing to do with the fact that Max slept with Tess. I honestly don't care about that. It was digusting to see, especially because they didn't give Max and Liz a lovescene like that, but I can deal with it. I can also deal with the fact that he had a child with her. And I totally understand why he wanted to find his child because if it were, I'd trying to the same, but the fact that he was just going to leave the planet without even telling her was wrong. It was like she meant absolutely nothing to him.

Anyway, we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this because you really haven't been hearing me. And you're accusing me of the same thing you're doing right now. It's another pro-Max rant.

But I do respect and value all of your opinions. I always love having these debates with people 'cause it's proof that the passion for Roswell is still alive! :D

You think if I cry hard enough, they'll bring Roswell back to tv? :cry: :lol:

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Re: Who loves who more?? Max or Liz?? and why do you think so??

Postby Sin » Wed Sep 03, 2008 8:07 pm

Coccy wrote:
the core point of what i'm saying (to the wind) is that they both loved each other in the same intensity and just because they were human and they did their own mistakes it doesn't delete their love for each other and what they BOTH always did for each other. My point is that BOTH Max and Liz were responsible for what happened to them.


I agree that they both chose actions that led to one another reacting in certaint ways. That's true and they both made choices that hurt the other one. That being said I don't think that Liz made a mistake. She did what she had to do and did the best she could with what she was given and the entire reason why Liz did what she did was because ultimately she did love Max enough. She loved Max so much that she was willing to save him from the fate of having to watch his entire family die and the world turned into dust. They were both responsible for what they did but threw it all Liz's love for Max prevailed over anything. While Max strayed from that. That's pretty much the end result.

are you sure?
because sorry me but in Cry your name they BOTH stopped to have faith in each other.


I don't think so. Even when Liz was hurt over Alex's death she still was willing to work with Max if he believed that there was atleast a possibility that her theory was true. When Max closed that door that's when she walked away from him and the group. Prior to that she was still willing to work with him but it was only when Max chose to openly act against her and then blackmail her with the loss of his friendship that Liz left him. But even then Liz still believed in him. She believed in him in Departure when she went to support him in killing Leanna. Liz was still with him even if their relationship was strained when he attacked her in BIY and Departure. Max felt he was alone because he chose to force her to choose between either his friendship or finding the truth and he pushed her and got an undesireable reaction. Just because Liz chose not to end her investigation doesn't mean she lost faith in him or their love. Atleast not to me. He may have lost her support and her "obedience" but not her love or her faith. Departure shows that. Atleast in my opinon that she never lost her faith in him. Even when he was wrong she didn't make him grovel or force him to apologize she accepted that she was right gracefully and offered him support because he wasn't denying her and forcing her to act a certaint way.

and i don't need to remind you what Liz told Max in heart of mine.


Liz was doing what was told of her. Pushing Max towards Tess to save the world. She did that for him. Because he asked. Not because she stopped loving him or because she lost faith in their love or their relationship. Hell she was still holding on to the fact that they could be friends even threw it all. She begged Max to still be her friend in CYN and he didn't support her nor was he particulairly friendily in ITBAITL, BIY, Departure or in CYN.

Liz couldn't put her feelings aside too. again, it's not that her behavior and choice of words helped him and the situation


Liz apologized for her words to Max at Alex's funeral but the thing that drove them further apart and further strained things was Max's complete dismissal of her instincts and then his horrid behavior where he manhandled her and attacked her in front of the entire school and then tried to emotionally blackmail her into not going to Sweden.

can we understand it?
i don't think that it's really so hard. not into a world where not all of us can read people's minds.


It's not about waiting forever. It's about the fact that Max so easily went into the form of house with Tess that shows how he was able to move on rather easily that shows me more that Liz wasn't important enough to him.

Liz didn't find herself in the same situation.
i never was into Max's situation so i will never be able to say that i couldn't do his mistake.


I don't see Liz sleeping with anyone but Max. It just wasn't a possibility. That was the one thing season two showed more then anything else was Liz's undying love for Max and ultimately how Liz could never be unfaithful to their love for eachother because she was unable to love or even care for anyone else the way she did for Max. Liz was in Max's situation in Departure when she found out that Max slept for Tess, cared for Tess, had a child with her and was going to leave the planet with her. That was worse infinetely worse then finding out Liz slept with Kyle. Yet she still couldn't sleep with Sean.
like i said before, into her situation she couldn't
but Max wasn't Liz and Liz wasn't Max


I think Liz was in an even worse situation compared to the two.
put Liz into the same situation and lets see what she would have done. otherwise this is totally pointless.


The fact that Max loved her is a pretty small constellation when considering the fact that he impregnated another woman, was leaving the planet with her and was acting more or less like a husband to her and that he in a somewhat backwards way even said inadverently that he "loved" her. If there was ever a time to give into grief sex I think that would have been it. But then again Liz couldn't.

it's not that Max replaced her either.


He replaced her as his significant other. I don't see how one could see Departure and not see that he was devoted to Tess and his responsiblity as a father. He may love Liz forever but he made his choice and he chose her. He chose. That's what it comes down to.

after Alex's death Max wasn't a priority for Liz


I disagree. He was a priority but she wouldn't back down to his "authority" because she believed that something was wrong. It was Max who threw their relationship away by making her choose between him and what she felt compelled to do. Had Max been willing to see Liz's side I doubt things would have transpired the way they did and I have no doubt that if Max was willing to be patient and actually understand and hear her out things would have never transpired the way they did. But he shut her out and was obstinante to the point where he pushed and he got a reaction that he wasn't expecting which is rather shocking in itself because who wouldn't react that way after the way he treated her that day.

Ultimately Liz's grief wasn't a priority for Max and he forced her into a position where she didn't yeild and consent to his tyranny which enraged him into ending thier friendship that he spat at with his previous abusive and insensitive actions earlier in the episode. But even in Departure we see that Max was still a priority to her when she went to support him in his execution of Leanna.

The only thing ITBAITL proved was that Liz wasn't willing to follow Max's directions blindly when she felt compelled by everything in her that something was wrong. ITBAITL and it's catastrophic results were largely in part to Max's need to push her into obeying and cow towing him. Had he let her in just the slightest bit on what he was feeling I have no doubt that Liz would have tried to comfort him and I think they could have even healed together. But Max was completely against Liz in that episode. Had he atleast tried to see things from her side things could have ended alot differently and he probably wouldn't have felt so isolated. But in the end he isolated himself. He forced Liz to make a desicion after he was a complete jerk to her and then was heartbroken by the out come. It's the same arrogance he pulled on Isabel in BIY after acting so atrocious to her in ITBAITL and expecting comfort from her after "hot alien sex". :roll:

whoa!! lets delete the scene from departure where he cried outside the crashdown.


That still doesn't change the fact that had not Liz and everyone else told him about Tess' actions that he would have left.

too bad that actually she really did it in too late and too bad
she choose Alex over even her friendship with Max


It wasn't Liz who made the ultimatem. It was Max. She wanted his support. She wanted him to atleast acknowledge that there might be something to her thoughts and instincts. He denied her and forced her to choose. But that doesn't mean she lost faith in him she just wasn't willing to let the fact that something was very wrong with Alex's death go. That doesn't mean she stopped believing in him. She showed her support in Departure and when she saved Max from leaving earth. She still loved and believed in him. The faith wasn't lost for Liz. Even after he told her about the baby and the sex and that he was leaving.
because he was right. it was his right.


It's not about being right or wrong. It the fact that Max was willing to move past Liz and be with Tess completely while Liz couldn't give up her feelings for Max.
Max knew another truth
we know what would have happened if FMax and Liz didn't try to change the future.


Liz could have still tried to move on and she could have even given herself to Sean. She had plenty of chances and oppourtunities. Liz could have went back to Kyle. She could have started another relationship and tried to sleep with someone else. The point I am trying to make is that her love for Max was so deeply imbeded into her that she couldn't. While Max was making great strides to move on and almost accomplished it.
only one mistake delete everything he always did before and after it. everything he always did just didn't matter anymore because of this one thing.


I do feel that the fact that he slept with Tess marred alot of the words and declarations he gave to Liz in season one. I just don't see how he could sleep with her after he said all the words and all the actions that he did to prove that love for her and he ended up sleeping with her. To me that tarnishes the love that he had for Liz and makes me believe that he didn't love her as profusely as he said he did. His love didn't prevail threw it all and the fact that he willingly slept with Tess without protection and then was willing to leave the earth for her eviscerated many of the beeautfiul moments where he declared his love for her in season one and even in season two. I do love CDB because of the fact that it shows us how important Liz is to him. But that doesn't change the fact that I sympathsize with the pain that Liz goes threw every day because Max didn't believe in her, their love and that he didn't have faith in what they had. Ultimately all of Liz's actions didn't create something that marred their relationship. In the end Liz didn't sleep with Kyle, she didn't fall in love with Sean. The only thing she did was lie because of the fact that he came from the past and told her to or else he would suffer immensely. She did everything she could to protect him and that shows her love and what did she get for her love? She had the man that professed undying love to sleep with another woman, create a child with her and then was willing to leave her when ever the opportunity came where he could get to Antar.

It's like Max always thought that there were more important things then her, while with Liz it was always Max who was a huge priority in her life and then the one time where she asks him to believe in her he slaps her in the face and ends their friendship.

because Max not only could do it but he really did it in the canon and more than once. but you delete it.


It's not about that. We are all aware that both Liz and Max would bite bullets for one another and die for one another. That's not the point I'm debating. What does this have to do with anything. We both know that they would die and heal eachother if one was on their last breath. In this aspect of their love they both would save one another and put eachother in danger if it could in any way help one another. The point I am contesting is more about faith, support, priority, importance and sacrifices.

you're putting (and not just you) Liz against Max taking in consideration only her POV in the story.


I see Max's point of view. But that doesn't change my opinon. Perhaps I am being a bit harsh on him. I can understand his loss, his hurt and his isolation but he put that self in that situation when he kept pushing everyone away. His pain was in large part caused by his heartless and callous actions towards his friends and his tyrannical approach towards the group. I understand where Max was coming from, where he was at mind wise but that doesn't mean that he was right and everyone else was being mean or unreasonable and he was being rudely picked on. To me his actions are not justified or even strongly motivated. It's all rather weak and Max would have never done what he did to Isabel or Liz that he did in ITBAITL.


there's no difference for me because Max and Liz didn't live the same identical situations


You're right. I think Liz's situation was arguablly worse. She had ample motive to have grief alone sex with Sean but she didn't want to. She couldn't.
are you really sure?
because in destiny, if i remember well,


She walked away from him because she thought that's what he needed. She didn't want to force him to choose between his duty and his destiny. She didn't want her love to stifle him or push him away from what he needed to do. This is what I mean when I say that Liz loved Max beyond a way anyone else ever could. Her love was complete and all consuming because she loved him enough to walk away and let him do what he needed to do. She loved him enough to let him go. Liz loved him beyond anything and that proved with her actions. If she stayed with him she would have only harmed the group and destroyed the "four square" and endangered them all because they had a duty to uphold.

and it's not that everyone supported Liz.


I hate to go polar on you but even Michael ended up supporting Liz's theory. Isabel, Liz, Maria, Michael the entire group was behind her at a certaint point and was beginning to believe in her theory or atleast think about the possiblity of it. The only ones who didn't were Tess and Max. Tess for obvious reasons and Max because he wasn't thinking with the right head.


i tend to take more Max's side because at least Liz knew the truth and she was making her choices about their relationship with more power


Power? She was helpless as she could do nothing but watch Max and Tess get closer and closer and know that "that was the way things were supposed to be". Power? It was anything but. It was hell on her. She had to bear the burden and hide the fact that Max was tearing her heart out with a butter knife each and every time he and Tess "got close". But she bared it all because he told her to.

so i dreamed all the other scenes and episodes like busted,


It was clear that the very beginning that from the moment Max started recieving those visions that Liz was second to finding his son. He was even willing to seperate from her AGAIN but Liz was the one who held on to their love and chose to do it with him. If anything it was Liz who was holding onto him like a vice while Max was yet again pulling away.

michael the guys and the.., significant others, a tale of two parties, the end of samuel rising, the end of control


Control was when Max was willing to get on a ship and never see her again and it was only the fact that the ship was a piece of garbage and couldn't work that he went back to Liz. Again Alien priority number uno while Liz was dust or less and it's only after he couldn't get priority one to work that he went back to her. The snapple episode was nice i'll admit but again it further proves that after Busted where he couldn't find the ship that he made her the center of his world again. SO is in the very same vein. Samuel Rising was more of the same of I need to find my son and it was only after he realized that he couldn't contact his son that he yet again made Liz a priority.

again, he's not a toy that the girls had to win.


Why do you keep bring the toy bit up? It's not about him being a toy. It's the fact that he shared something very intimate and tied himself to her for life and beyond when they made Zan.

again, Liz never lived what Max lived so we can't know for sure what she would have done into his place
and even if her personality, into the exact situation, would be stronger than Max it doesn't automatically mean that she loves him more than Max. it just means that she's stronger as an individual person while Max isn't or he's stronger into other situations.


It means that she didn't want to sleep with anyone or be intimate with anyone but Max. As to her situation I can't think of a better moment where she could have had grief sex then when Max unloaded everything he did in Departure if that doesn't drive you into someone elses arms nothing will.

you avoided the part of my reply where i said that fans justify Michael's actions in season 3 when he was the king using the "alien side influence" card but then when it's about Max no one use it even if the writers created this "excuse" for Max and not for the others.


The writers never gave any conclusion that Max was forced into sleeping with Tess. Be it alien energy or mindwarp rape. It was always Max chose to sleep with her for reasons A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J and K. To be honest it would be much easier to swallow and believe that Max had to be forced into it. It's not like it was above Tess not to do it. But they chose not to go that route for whatever reasons. I think that's more plausiable then anything else. Especially since he acted like a victim of assult afterwards any ways.

I'll conclude that I have been harsh on Max. Perhaps judging him to closely. But that's kind of what this thread was made to do. Examine their actions and see which one loved which more. While in the story was about aliens and thier heritige there would be times where Max would care about other things and where he had to make desicions were Liz wasn't as important. But that still doesn't change the fact that there were many times were Liz just wasn't a priority. But ultimately he did love her and I am happy that Liz got him after everything. But I still do believe that Liz loves him more. If push comes to shove.
Last edited by Sin on Thu Sep 04, 2008 7:24 am, edited 5 times in total.

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Cocogurl
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Re: Who loves who more?? Max or Liz?? and why do you think so??

Postby Cocogurl » Wed Sep 03, 2008 9:38 pm

I agree with most of what Sin said here. :D

I can admit that every now and then I might be a little too hard on Max, except for the Alex thing. I still believe that the way Max acted about Alex's death was completely and made him seem like a "self-centered, self-indulgent little boy" as Isabel would put it. And I really don't think that Max was cheating on Liz when he slept with Tess. They weren't together at the time. And if Liz had really slept Kyle, she wouldn't have been cheating on Max either.

But I don't think that coccy (and others here) can say that they're really sympathetic to both POVs either. The way I see it, they've completely disregarded everything Liz went through, like it was easy for her to just do what she did in EOTW and that was so not the case. And not everything that Max did was completely justified either. Because it wasn't, and you are giving Max excuses for every single thing he did on the show.

The point is, that this is a very complex subject and not everybody's going to completely agree on everything. And that's perfectly fine. But if you're going to ask me to see more of Max's, I think you can also do the same for Liz.

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Re: Who loves who more?? Max or Liz?? and why do you think so??

Postby Coccy » Thu Sep 04, 2008 8:12 am

Cocogurl wrote:Coccy, we're just going to have to agree to disagree. Because once again you've disregarded everything I've said.


it seems that i'm not the only one here, then :lol:

But after Alex's death, I give him no more excuses.


i don't give him excuses either, i understand him and i accept that he couldn't be the perfect boy all the time and he had his personal crisis too and he was an ass. that's different.
I could have been angry toward Max is what happened had happened into another moment, into a moment where he didn't feel the way he felt and he didn't live the year he lived.
i knew that sooner or later he could explode.
i find impossible that someone can be so strong, it's not realistic.
the problem here is that you and the others do not notice what he went through too you notice only what Liz lived because you knew what she was really doing and you take for granted that since she wanted to save the world and FMax asked her then present Max wasn't hurt and influenced by her manipulations too.

both Liz and Tess manipulated Max. but the big difference is that Liz did it because she loved him very much while Tess did it just for her own agenda.
yes Liz loved Max. yes she did everything for him. yes she did what she thought it was the right thing to do. yes it wasn't her fault if she had to create that big lie and she had to hurt Max. BUT MAX DIDN'T KNOW ANY OF THIS
is it so hard to understand?
come on... i understand that *we* saw what was happening and it's hard to not take for granted that his reality wasn't different by ours but after 9 years we could start to understand such a simple thing.
again, his reality was totally different than hers.
Max didn't what he did knowing the truth. it was something happened into a specific time of his life.


and again, even when he believed that Liz slept with Kyle he forgave her and tried to be a friend. he still had hopes.
but there're some limits even for Max.







Because the way he treated he Liz and Isabel was wrong and I'll explain why. Yes, Max had to touch Alex's dead, but that in no way compares to the fact that Alex was Maria and Isabel's best friend and he was Isabel's boyfriend.


no we can't compare it. but it doesn't mean that it was less important.
just because Alex wasn't Max's best friend or the guy he was in love with it doesn't mean that his feelings weren't important.
his feelings about Alex weren't really about loss like Liz, Maria and Isabel. it was different.
he felt responsible of his death and the bad thing is that even Liz accused him and he had no one who told him that it wasn't his fault.
like i said before, both Max and Liz felt responsible of Alex's death. it's the reason of why they were unreasonable toward each other. they needed to believe into a different theory because the other one one made them responsible

Max is the only one who got tortured both psychologically and physically by the FBI still he never really got the chance to get past it. he had to put his feelings aside because he was the leader. the same happened when Alex died.
he was the one who HAD to save his life. his sister, Liz were awaiting for his miracle. and then he failed. he couldn't do it, he couldn't save Liz's best friends and he couldn't save the guy his sister loved.
it's irrational but he felt responsible. he was the one who started it all. he healed Liz, told her her secret, included Alex in the secret. He ruined their life.
he just couldn't accept that an alien killed Alex.
and then EVEN Liz told him

You don't want to think that Alex was killed by an alien because that would mean *you* are responsible.

kill him directly. it would hurt less.

Max told Michael too

MAX: You think we have something to do with it?

MICHAEL: I have no idea. I just wouldn't want our leader to be forming opinions based on what he wants to be true instead of what really is true. Anyway... (casually Max is the leader for him now!)

MAX: Michael. The idea that Alex might have died just because we're here... I can't bear it.


How can that not mean more?


it doesn't mean neither more nor less for me.
it's just important as well and he was hurt as well. it seems that we see only what it's on the surface while for me nothing was so simple.
if Isabel and Liz had their reasons to act as bitches Max had his too.

And I don't believe that Isabel was selfish at all, he was just pissed at her because she wasn't doing exactly what he said.


they were both selfish for their own reasons.
they both tried to feel better, they both tried to protect their self
it was stupid and OOC for Max but he still was trying to be what they wanted him to be: a leader.
a leader who felt responsible for their life.





it's okay if Max and Michael break the rules but Isabel even dares to it, it's the end of the world.


Isabel is the first one who didn't follow the rules since the beginning. from what i recall she was the one who had her fake normal life with her fake friends and her fake boyfriends even before Max saved Liz's life. if she wanted to criticize Max and Michael then she had to follow the rules too otherwise the three of them were just the same.
Iz wanted to go at the college but she didn't even think about how it would have been hard for Max and Michael to protect her and the others at the same time while she was into another city far away from roswell. they needed to stay together.



And if touching Alex's body had effected him so much, then he should've tried harder to believe Liz especially when she presented some of the facts to him at the end of Cry Your Name.


i have to ask you something.
are you always able to use logic? honestly
because for me we humans aren't able to do it all the time. sometimes you just can't accept a truth no matter what.
then it doesn't help that closer to you there's a manipulative bitch who keep on telling you that you're the best, that she's the only one who understand you, that you're living a dream because you have to accept the real thing. you have to wake up
and then even the woman you love tells you to wake up

i don't want to justify him
i just understand what leaded him to the mistake he did.
i'm not presumptuous enough to believe that i could be better than him or someone else could have been better than him, in the same situation
i just take in consideration details that aren't details for me.



A person who's about to commit suicide doesn't go out and buy concert tickets for him and his girlfriend. That just doesn't happen. And Max is not HER king. She doesn't have to do what he says. And if she hadn't investigated Alex's death, it would've been like saying that Alex meant absolutely nothing to their group and that his death would be acceptable because Max, Michael and Isabel's secret is still safe, and if I were Liz, I wouldn't be able to that, not if I knew in my heart that something bad happened to my best friend. And they should be thankful that she didn't do what Max said because if she had, they all might be dead on Antar.


no one is saying that Liz wasn't right.


And as for season 3, Max really was in the wrong. You're right, Liz did decide to stand by him and be there for him, and help him find his son, but that doesn't mean she has to be doormat for him. And that's not right, no matter what she decided.


again, what he did?
and again, i don't believe that she was a doormat nor Max wanted her to be one! when it happened?


And right now, you're accusing me of doing to Max what you'r doing to Liz right now. :lol: You've been excusing everything Max has done, and been persecuting Liz for pretty much everything. :lol: You (and many others) haven't been able to say at least on good thing about Liz in her defense.


so we're both hypocritical and not coherent.

but i'm not persecuting Liz for what she did. i'm just taking in consideration Max's pov too.
and since he didn't know what she was really doing and his reality was totally the opposite i can't analyze his pov using Liz's.
it's inevitable that i'm forced to see Liz like *he* saw her, i'm forced to look at what Liz did with Max's eyes and what she made him believe.
this doesn't mean that i'm stupid and i forgot about the real truth of the story and the fact that Liz was right.

also, i'm not the one here who is saying who loved more between M&L nor who had more faith into their relationship
on the contrary i'm defending their love for each other and i totally refuse to say who loved more because for me it's not possible.
and since you and Sin are persecuting Max for everything he did in order to prove that Liz loved him more or that she had more faith, it's inevitable that i have to take his side more, for now, because i tried to prove the contrary and that they both loved each other in the same way.
it's not that i disagree with your pro Liz side. i disagree with the anti-Max side and i'm writing why




For me, it has nothing to do with the fact that Max slept with Tess. I honestly don't care about that.

i find it hard to believe :lol:
because for me most of the anti-Max people are like that because, like someone here also said, they look at what happened through I-Hate-Tess colored glasses. He did a mistake and he has to die xD
no matter what he would have done in season 3, people would never be happy especially since Tess was the one who killed Alex. too prevented

I honestly accepted the tex storyline (and it doesn't mean that i liked it! i just got over it because i understood what it really was.). maybe for this reason i can, now, understand Max's pov too. (i wasn't always like that)

It was digusting to see, especially because they didn't give Max and Liz a lovescene like that, but I can deal with it. I can also deal with the fact that he had a child with her. And I totally understand why he wanted to find his child because if it were, I'd trying to the same, but the fact that he was just going to leave the planet without even telling her was wrong. It was like she meant absolutely nothing to him.


if you understand then you could understand that sometimes people can't use logic. can you do it? honestly? because i'm not able to do it all the time. i also look at the outcome of it. it's not that Max didn't realize what he almost did. actually he cried into her arms because he realized it. that episode was important for me, for both of them. and he made a promise that he kept. he realized something that he needed to realize.
Max was naive because he believed that he could go to antar, get the baby and then get back to earth the day after. from the way he talked and what he told Kal it really seemed that he believed that he could do it! :lol: stupid alien boy

then when logic was with him again he understood the big mistake he almost did. he traveled all night in order to be with her as soon as possible and he finally admitted that he had failed and he just couldn't find his son. it was impossible.
also, all the logic was gone when Liz was in danger, for example.
can you honestly say that Max was using logic when he told Max that he wanted to contact even the FBI in order to save Liz?
or that he was using logic when they were falling and he saved her only letting himself die?

i'm not a mother but into a way or another i can (or at least i try to) understand how it feels if your baby is in danger and into his case it was even worse because his son connected him asking his help.




Sin wrote:I agree that they both chose actions that led to one another reacting in certaint ways. That's true and they both made choices that hurt the other one. That being said I don't think that Liz made a mistake. She did what she had to do and did the best she could with what she was given and the entire reason why Liz did what she did was because ultimately she did love Max enough. She loved Max so much that she was willing to save him from the fate of having to watch his entire family die and the world turned into dust. They were both responsible for what they did but threw it all Liz's love for Max prevailed over anything. While Max strayed from that. That's pretty much the end result.


but, again, Max didn't know it.
for him she wasn't doing this. for him she didn't love him anymore, she didn't want him. she wanted normal and she slept with Kyle
and Liz was the one who made him believe it all the time.
he simply couldn't know the truth.

so, it's ok to justify Liz's actions in the name of her original purpose but i can't use it in order to persecute Max for his actions because his reality wasn't like hers or ours.

If Max had done what he did knowing the truth and without *that* reality he believed than i could completely agree with you. but it's not the case.
without knowing the truth about Liz I'm sure that you would have thought what Max thought and most likely you wouldn't have tried to be friends with her for the whole year before the "fall"
personally i find incredible as well that he could forgive Liz after he discovered the truth because even if she did everything for him she still manipulated him
but for Max it seemed that he was the only one who did a wrong thing.
i don't remember a single scene in season 3 or even in departure where he told her that she betrayed him and he had the right to know the truth.
he totally took all the responsibility of what happened.




I don't think so. Even when Liz was hurt over Alex's death she still was willing to work with Max if he believed that there was atleast a possibility that her theory was true.


not really.

But even then Liz still believed in him.


i beg to differ
she didn't show me with actions and words that she really believed in him and in them
the priority was Alex and Alex only. and i don't fault her for it because in that time Alex needed her more than Max or other people.

She believed in him in Departure when she went to support him in killing Leanna.


so he believed in her in departure when he finally admitted that she was right and wanted to help her.
when the time was right they both started to believe in each other again
Liz was still with him even if their relationship was strained when he attacked her in BIY and Departure.


and he was still with her even if their their relationship was strained when she attacked him in cry your name and ITAITB


Max felt he was alone because he chose to force her to choose between either his friendship or finding the truth and he pushed her and got an undesireable reaction.


it's so much more than this.
from his POV she was accusing him of killing Alex. it's not what she did but from his POV i can understand where he got this idea
irrationally he just couldn't bear that an alien killed Alex and that Liz believed it too. he needed time, later he accepted the truth but in that moment it was just too late and too bad for him. he couldn't.
as crazy and unreasonable as it's he felt guilty (and it's not that someone tried to make him feel less guilty).
just like Liz felt guilty because she changed the future and Alex died.

then add that Tess was on him like glue manipulating him all the time taking advantage of the situation and Alex's death.
and again, it's not that Max was completely himself. nor Liz was. but who can be into this kind of situations?



Just because Liz chose not to end her investigation doesn't mean she lost faith in him or their love.


it's not this. this is what showed what was the priority for her in that moment and into a way it was the last clue that she didn't believe in them anymore. not in that moment. not in heart of mine when she did that speech and in the end she wrote that page of her diary. and it's perfectly normal, for me.



He may have lost her support and her "obedience" but not her love or her faith.


well if we see everything from HIS pov he did lose everything. her love, her faith and even her friendship
and it's not that Liz proved HIM the contrary. we know why but Max didn't.
again, the point here is always the same.

Departure shows that. Atleast in my opinon that she never lost her faith in him. Even when he was wrong she didn't make him grovel or force him to apologize she accepted that she was right gracefully and offered him support because he wasn't denying her and forcing her to act a certaint way.


it seems to me that Max too, in departure, showed that he didn't completely lost his faith in her since he wanted to help her and he finally admitted that he was wrong. Liz understood that she did hurt him and that he believed that she blamed him for Alex's death. Max understood that it wasn't what she did. they could have done it before it was late (but it's never too late for me), before the whole mess. But people are not perfect.

i do believe that the scene was very telling

Max: You were right, about Alex. He was killed by an alien. I prayed that that wasn't the case but it was. We're responsible.

Liz: I never blamed you Max. I never blamed any of you.

Max: I know. I know you didn't.

Liz: I never wanted to lose you.

Max: Me either.




Liz was doing what was told of her. Pushing Max towards Tess to save the world. She did that for him.


again, Max didn't know it.
for him she didn't love him anymore and he was still hoping for something that he couldn't have anymore. end of the story


Because he asked.


FMax asked not present Max!!!!!!!! :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

maybe this is the whole problem here! now i'm starting to understand.
you believe that Max is responsible for something that another version of him (that he didn't even know that existed) did! for this reason you don't understand his POV
how you could?
for you FMax and present Max are the same person. Max asked her to do what she did and then betrayed her.
too bad that it's not what happened!
Max can't be responsible of what he didn't know and he couldn't control. he was totally innocent about what his future self did. he didn't even know that he did exist, he knew knowing about this crap.
Max only knew what present Liz made him believe. for Max, for what he saw and what she told him, Liz slept with Kyle and told him that she didn't want to die for him, that she wanted a normal life that he couldn't give her. he believed in what she told him when she said that maybe they were trying to believe into something that wasn't there anymore between them and they had to move on.

Max never asked her to not love him. he didn't want to end their relationship. the contrary.








Not because she stopped loving him or because she lost faith in their love or their relationship.


she should have trusted Max enough to tell him the whole truth
she couldn't get both things. and ultimately she choose to not be with Max and not give them another chance.
she lost faith for me because she irrationally believed that Max could understand the truth without her telling him. that she could have saved the world and be with him at the same time. but she knew that Max couldn't know the truth.

she should have believed that they could find a solution together instead of making the decision alone.
just like she should have done it in destiny and then in changes. instead she pushed him away all the times and she always made, into a way or another, the decision for both of them.

this is not accurate but i don't have the time to analyze this point too, for now. the discussion doesn't let me do it. :? i don't fault her i'm just showing that he wasn't the only one who made the mistake to be vulnerable and to temporary lose his faith.
sometimes Liz gave up too and into some situations i find it pretty normal no matter how much you love someone.
who believe the contrary is unreasonable for me and wanted them to be robots always perfect and not human.






Hell she was still holding on to the fact that they could be friends even threw it all.


and Max no? :shock:
it seems to me that it's what he did in season 2 (some examples: Max in the city, We're a family, W Las Vegas, A roswell Xmas carol, when he stayed at the CD because he wanted to protect her after they found Leanne) and remember that from his POV she slept with Kyle, confirmed it, hurt him and told him horrible things for someone who was in love with her.


She begged Max to still be her friend in CYN and he didn't support her nor was he particulairly friendily in ITBAITL, BIY, Departure or in CYN.


totally true. but she wasn't so friendly either. you can't beg people to be your friend when you accuse them with phrases like the one i posted for cocogurl . it was Max's worst fear and she was the one who made it real.
into their situation i find impossible that they could understand each other.


Liz apologized for her words to Max at Alex's funeral but the thing that drove them further apart and further strained things was Max's complete dismissal of her instincts and then his horrid behavior where he manhandled her and attacked her in front of the entire school and then tried to emotionally blackmail her into not going to Sweden.


again, it's not that Liz was so nice too.
and again, they both understood the mistake not just Liz.

It's not about waiting forever. It's about the fact that Max so easily went into the form of house with Tess that shows how he was able to move on rather easily that shows me more that Liz wasn't important enough to him.


again, this is totally unreasonable.
Liz didn't live what Max was living. she wasn't in the same situation. she still hoped (if she hoped) because she knew the truth and she knew that they still loved each other.
on the other hand for Max he was the only one who still had hopes and he still loved her, so he gave up. after a year and in the worst moment of his life when he was extremely vulnerable and Tess took advantage of it.

there's no easy for me here.
Max didn't sleep with Tess when he knew that Liz loved him, he didn't sleep with her right after Liz "slept" with Kyle. it happened months later and he had to be in the worst moment of his life to even take that in consideration and after it he felt even more miserable than he felt before.

and, again, even Tess knew and admitted that Max always loved only Liz and she was always into his mind.
but he had to survive. Liz didn't want him anymore. Tess loved him and supported him (obviously it wasn't true but he didn't know!) i don't understand why from his pov he shouldn't have tried to survive especially since it seemed that he was supposed to save a planet with her. even Liz said that it was ok.

in the same situation Liz would have thought the same. or maybe not. but we will never know because Liz didn't live the same situation.
Max wasn't trying to save the world by making her believe that he didn't love her anymore and he didn't even want to be her friend anymore.

again, Liz was able to move on as well. just because she didn't sleep with Sean (but she almost did) it doesn't mean that we can delete the fact that she tried to be with him and she wasn't indifferent to him. she went to him even in heart of mine.
M&L were both on rebound and they tried to survive. this doesn't mean that they stopped to love each other.

sorry me but examples like the ones in chant down babylon are way more meaningful and important than who was able to be vulnerable into a certain moment and who not.

how can you say that she wasn't important enough for him? after everything he did for her
after even Tess admitted that she always was into his mind.
after he DIED for her and he saw nothing but her as the summary of his entire life.



I don't see Liz sleeping with anyone but Max. It just wasn't a possibility.


you can't be sure and even departure showed you that she almost did it.
but sure enough i don't believe that Liz loved Max just because she was attracted or not attracted by other people etc etc. i believe it for more important clues and the way she proved it other times that IMO were more important and meaningful for me

just like Max did. even the example from chant down babylon isn't one side. Liz could bring him back to life. they both saved each other life.





That was worse infinetely worse then finding out Liz slept with Kyle. Yet she still couldn't sleep with Sean.


i beg to differ
how it could be worse?
she was the one who pushed Max into Tess' arms. it was her plan and it worked.
she and Max weren't together. they were nothing when it happened. and in departure Max told her that he loved *her* even if she didn't ask him if he was in love with *her* too.
we just can't compare the two things. again, Liz could stop in that situation. but it doesn't automatically mean that she would have stopped if she was into Max's situation

i want to say that to me sex wasn't so important. even if Liz would sleep with Sean in that scene i could never say that she didn't love Max enough just for that!
especially seeing *when* the scene happened and the way she felt.





I think Liz was in an even worse situation compared to the two.


and this is why you will never understand Max and you will never put aside the simple fact that what you took for granted and you knew wasn't what Max knew. he lived a hell and not only for what happened with Liz.



The fact that Max loved her is a pretty small constellation


i give up :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
i don't understand what was really important, then.

i guess that for you if Max didn't love her but he didn't sleep with Tess then he was great and he really loved Liz ?

it seems that the core point here is always a material thing like who between Liz and Tess got his swimmers first.

again, love can be stronger than everything but it doesn't mean that the person who feels it is always the strongest person of the world.



He replaced her as his significant other. I don't see how one could see Departure and not see that he was devoted to Tess and his responsiblity as a father. He may love Liz forever but he made his choice and he chose her. He chose. That's what it comes down to.


he made a choice for duty not because he wanted. he had no other choice. only a bad mean person could find another choice, honestly. surely not the Max i knew.
Liz told him the truth too late.
Max's real choice was Liz and even Tess knew it.
He could be with her for duty and because he had no other choice but even Tess knew that his heart would always choose Liz and she was the one he wanted to be with if only he could get the chance. i can't see how Tess could feel loved and could feel devotion if she knew and we knew that Max was unhappy and he was doing what he was doing just because he was forced by duty toward the baby.

when Max was free from his duty he got rid of Tess at the first occasion.



I disagree. He was a priority but she wouldn't back down to his "authority" because she believed that something was wrong.


how he could be a priority?
it was humanly impossible for her!

again, we have the example of destiny too
Max needed her the most and she wasn't there with him. she left for the summer and didn't even call him. not matter how we rotate what happened, no matter if we understand how Liz felt. she still abandoned him even knowing what happened to him. someone could say "i would never see Max doing the same after Liz got tortured by the FBI and he saw it" we saw his reaction to the image of a dead Liz and that image wasn't even real.

you should apply on her and her behavior after destiny the same judgment you apply on Max's behavior especially if you take in consideration TEOTW and what she told him there and what she made him to believe. (it wasn't the truth but it was the truth for him)
but you don't do it because she wanted to save the world so everything she did to him is justified no matter what and only his actions are "the end of the world". when it's her only one mistake can't change her love and what she always did. but when it's for Max only one action (especially one made into a certain moment of his life that wasn't so easy and peaceful) can delete everything and every possible thing he will do for her, even killing himself isn't enough to prove that he loved her too. you wanted moooooooooooore

so why pretend that people have to judge only Max's bad actions? especially when for you they mean so much.
i mean, for me who helped who into a specific moment, who did this or that later or before isn't so important because i look at the outcome
i don't quantify love based on these things otherwise love can't exist in the first place. who is always so perfect? surely not all the other shippers you can find into tv-shows and roswell too.
if i fault Max for something i have to do the same with Liz too.
i can't say that Liz loved Max more for reasons that i can apply to Max's love too when i look at other scenes and other moments into their story.

but it seems to me that nothing but the end of season 2 happened here
i don't understand this selective memory used on Max only and every little did he did.








It was Max who threw their relationship away by making her choose between him and what she felt compelled to do. Had Max been willing to see Liz's side I doubt things would have transpired the way they did and I have no doubt that if Max was willing to be patient and actually understand and hear her out things would have never transpired the way they did. But he shut her out and was obstinante to the point where he pushed and he got a reaction that he wasn't expecting which is rather shocking in itself because who wouldn't react that way after the way he treated her that day.


Liz needed to tell him the truth about FMax and the real reason of why she was so sure that Alex couldn't die into this timeline
If Max had know the truth about FMax and that she still loved and believed in him things could have been totally different
but in the situation they were and the things he believed it's surrealistic to ask him to still believe in her at any cost. not to mention that he couldn't bear the thought that an alien had killed Alex because it meant, then, that HE was responsible. just like Liz told him
Max had some limits like everyone, he couldn't be always stronger enough to put his feelings, vulnerabilities and fears away. we ask too much
this doesn't mean that what he did was right.
but honestly who was perfect in roswell? all of them did bad things and were abusive and controlling. all of them were selfish at one point. ALL. and all of them had their reasons especially if you want to find them.



Ultimately Liz's grief wasn't a priority for Max and he forced her into a position where she didn't yeild and consent to his tyranny which enraged him into ending thier friendship that he spat at with his previous abusive and insensitive actions earlier in the episode. But even in Departure we see that Max was still a priority to her when she went to support him in his execution of Leanna.


i'm sorry but i believe that Max felt the same. from his side she didn't give him another choice and she was hurting him.. again.
this doesn't mean that he was right and he wasn't wrong.



He forced Liz to make a desicion after he was a complete jerk to her and then was heartbroken by the out come. It's the same stupidity he pulled on Isabel in BIY after acting so atrocious to her in ITBAITL and expecting comfort from her after "hot alien sex". :roll:


yes, because Liz wasn't controlling and "abusive" when she made for him the decision about their relationship and didn't tell him the truth about FMax and manipulated him in order to push him into Tess' arms. Liz wasn't a "jerk" when she acted like if he was the enemy and basically told him that he couldn't accept her theory because it it was true then he was responsible of Alex's death. please....

are we still in the middle age or what? because it seems to me that we women are always right and only when a man is a jerk it's noticed but never the contrary.

again, i don't fault her or persecute her but it's funny how people notice some things only when it's about Max. It seems that Liz was totally innocent here. and then i'm the one who justify every single action Max did.




That still doesn't change the fact that had not Liz and everyone else told him about Tess' actions that he would have left.


again, unreasonable.
he had no choice just like Liz had no choice in TEOTW or even changes when she left him even if he wanted to help her.
just like when in destiny she left him when he needed her the most.



It wasn't Liz who made the ultimatem. It was Max. She wanted his support. She wanted him to atleast acknowledge that there might be something to her thoughts and instincts. He denied her and forced her to choose.


again, it's not that she made it easy. from his pov
again, don't forget what Max believed
don't take for granted that Max knew the truth and he knew that she didn't mean all the things she told him

don't take for granted that just because FMax asked her Present Max knew it all and was responsible of that decision


It's not about being right or wrong. It the fact that Max was willing to move past Liz and be with Tess completely while Liz couldn't give up her feelings for Max.


again, into his situation it was pretty normal, human and realistic. Liz never lived what Max lived so she didn't the same mistake.
and again, just because Tess could jump into his pants into a night where he was vulnerable it doesn't mean that he was really moving on, in the first place.
even Tess admitted that he loved Liz and into his heart and mind all he could see was Liz. Tess got his body once but she couldn't get his heart
and before and after that night it's not that they were really a couple. Tess had to make him feel guilty in order to get his attention. it was obvious that the night wasn't created between two people who were really dating, and who really wanted to commit.
i also find the word "willing" very unfair and insensitive for what Max lived and when that night happened.


Liz could have still tried to move on and she could have even given herself to Sean.


well she dated him and tried to be with him
no matter if she slept with him or not, it not that she always awaited for Max
she tried to survive too.


She had plenty of chances and oppourtunities.


and she used some of them. like the end of heart of mine
just because she didn't sleep with him it doesn't mean that she wasn't trying to move on too.
but just like for Max it didn't work because she loved Max not Sean. no matter if she kissed him or made out with him


Liz could have went back to Kyle. She could have started another relationship and tried to sleep with someone else.


Liz knew that she and Max still loved each other and that they weren't together just because of FMax and her lies.
Max no. for him Liz didn't love him anymore and they had no hopes


I do feel that the fact that he slept with Tess marred alot of the words and declarations he gave to Liz in season one.


if he had slept with her into another moment knowing what Liz really did, yes.
but it isn't the case
what Max lived and his feelings weren't a detail for me. for this reason i understand him and i will never believe that his mistake into that specific moment of his life meant that he didn't love Liz enough. especially when i look at many other scenes that proved the contrary

to me there's nothing more powerful than the scenes from Chant down babylon and what he did for her.
i don't fault for being human and not strong enough one time. i will not delete everything he did for that night.

otherwise i have to do it with Liz too when she left him in destiny or changes. but i wont.

it's funny because you don't understand why Max did lose his faith in her and her love for him after the mistakes she did but then you lose your faith in Max and his love for her just because of a mistake he did.
why it's ok for you to not forgive him or it was ok for Liz to now forgive him in season 3 but then it's bad when Max is the one who doesn't forgive and who lose his faith.




I just don't see how he could sleep with her after he said all the words and all the actions that he did to prove that love for her and he ended up sleeping with her.


because for him Liz destroyed it all and he was the only one who still loved her. because Liz didn't love him anymore, he had no hopes she destroyed them all. he couldn't know the truth and Liz didn't tell him.
again, it's not that Tess got his heart. she got his vulnerability but not his love. she herself admitted that he loved Liz and she was ALWAYS into his mind. how it can be a detail?
i also believe that Max thought that after all it was his destiny and he had to give up. Tess was there for him all the time and she seemed to love him no matter what.
it seemed that Tess had nothing to lose with him while Liz.. he could ruin her life and he did.
then we should take in consideration that Max was a clone of another person and he got memories from that person
fake or not, he still remembered another world and he thought that he had loved Tess into that other life.
i do believe that being a clone of someone is really confusing. who are you? what are your feelings?
it was a mix of many things not just one.
what happened with Liz, the feeling that she didn't love him anymore, the feeling of failure as human and as alien, Tess always there like a vulture taking advantage of his fears and weakness in order to make him believe that the real thing wasn't earth and he was just a stupid dreamer who had to wake up and finally be what he was meant to be. then even Liz told him to wake up

again, it's not that he cheated on Liz or sleep with Tess when he knew that she loved him back and that they had a chance. it wasn't the case. totally different and not so easy. it was way more complex and "tragic"






To me that tarnishes the love that he had for Liz and makes me believe that he didn't love her as profusely as he said he did.

Max killed himself for Liz. even after his body was dust he still loved and protected her sacrificing his life.
when he was dying he didn't see Tess or other people. everything he saw was Liz. the only thing that kept his soul alive was Liz and only her love could bring him back to life like in "Max in the city" only her could connect to him and save him. two scenes happened when things between him and Liz weren't so perfect and peaceful. both scenes happened when it seemed that Liz didn't want to be into a relationship with him anymore.

some people could say that Max loved Liz more because when they were dying (and it's the moment where the truth is most visible) Liz had flashes of other people too while Max saw only Liz. But i won't say it because to me they loved each other in the same intensity. i can't quantify it

i don't care if into a moment of weakness when he wasn't even totally himself and he thought that Liz didn't love him anymore, he slept with another woman. compared to this it's nothing, he sold his body and so? there're things way more important than loveless sex into the worst time of your life. i'm not so materialistic. and it's not that he didn't pay the mistake. it seems to me that he payed it very much, even more than other teenagers in the same situation.

there're many men that aren't "infidel" materially but they don't love the woman they're with or they claim to love, in the way Max loved Liz.
it's not that all roswell characters were angels. ;) Sean and Tess weren't the only examples. they were all attracted to other people and not just their "CC" partners.
still it doesn't mean that they didn't love the people they ended up with.

again, Max didn't give to Tess his heart. she herself admitted that he loved Liz and not her. he wasn't in love with Tess nor he showed it.
even in departure when Liz asked Max told her that she was the only woman he could love *that* way (and Liz didn't ask him if he loved *her*)
before knowing her true colors it's realistic that he cared about Tess, Max is not a monster. but to be in love and to be attracted by someone and care about him/her isn't the same thing for me.




I do love CDB because of the fact that it shows us how important Liz is to him. But that doesn't change the fact that I sympathsize with the pain that Liz goes threw every day because Max didn't believe in her, their love and that he didn't have faith in what they had.


again, when he didn't believe in her it was normal and realistic because of what she did to him and what he believed that she did.
he didn't what he did into another moment of their relationship where the big lie didn't exist.
you keep on taking for granted that Max did what he did knowing that Liz loved him. but he didn't.


Ultimately all of Liz's actions didn't create something that marred their relationship.


i beg to differ
it was both their fault.
she lied and manipulated to him. she should have told him the truth instead of confirming her lie.
how he could believe in her if his Liz wasn't the real one? if she was telling him lies.


She did everything she could to protect him and that shows her love and what did she get for her love? She had the man that professed undying love to sleep with another woman, create a child with her and then was willing to leave her when ever the opportunity came where he could get to Antar.


again, Max didn't know what she did. so it wasn't his fault if she had to suffer so much because from his POV she was the one who wanted it all, the one who didn't want to be with him, the one who ended their relationship twice



It's like Max always thought that there were more important things then her


this is unfair and not true especially after what he always did for her and wanted to do. in the end he basically even chose her over his own son after changes

again, we totally watched another show.


It's not about that. We are all aware that both Liz and Max would bite bullets for one another and die for one another. That's not the point I'm debating.
What does this have to do with anything. We both know that they would die and heal eachother if one was on their last breath. In this aspect of their love they both would save one another and put eachother in danger if it could in any way help one another.
The point I am contesting is more about faith, support, priority, importance and sacrifices.



ok now i'm confused :lol:
i find it contradictory after what i just replied.
and sorry me but at the beginning of this discussion you clearly said that Liz loved Max more and not only she loved him more but Max's love for her wasn't so big and she wasn't so important for him.
i replied trying to show that they both loved each other in the same way
it just depends on what moment of their relationship you look at because they both showed to love each other immensely and they both showed to have faith one time and to lose it another.
IF Max did lose his faith into that moment, Liz did lose it in destiny or changes or heart of mine. if one showed this powerful love into a moment then into another moment the other one showed it too.
you take in consideration only the end of season 2 when we have tons of examples for both of them and roswell is a show with 3 seasons not just 2 episodes where Max (and Liz) wasn't really himself (and even the writers said it).


I see Max's point of view. But that doesn't change my opinon.


sorry but i find it a bit contradictory ^^""""


Perhaps I am being a bit harsh on him. I can understand his loss, his hurt and his isolation but he put that self in that situation when he kept pushing everyone away. His pain was in large part caused by his heartless and callous actions towards his friends and his tyrannical approach towards the group.


exactly. just like Liz's pain was the result of her own manipulations against Max. no matter if she did the thing she thought that was right. she still had her own responsibility into the situation she found herself into. she broke Max heart, she made him believe something and she payed the price of it just like Max payed the price of his own mistakes. no more, no less.



I understand where Max was coming from, where he was at mind wise but that doesn't mean that he was right


see i understand Liz too. but it doesn't mean that her manipulations against Max were right (just like Max's behavior toward her and Isabel wasn't right) because into a way or another they influenced what happened, a lot.
the truth is just too important. without the truth between them they're a mess. it's inevitable that her actions could hurt him and create for him an alternative reality that wasn't the real one.


You're right. I think Liz's situation was arguablly worse. She had ample motive to have grief alone sex with Sean but she didn't want to. She couldn't.


we have to disagree.
i just can't see how it could be worse. for the reasons i already stated.

not to mention that Liz wasn't the clone of an alien king and Sean wasn't Tess. Sean could manipulate people just in the human way (and he didn't) the other one could totally manipulate people's mind and feelings. look at what happened to poor Alex. she even made him feel *happy* about an imaginary girlfriend and trip to Sweden
even the writers said that Max wasn't really himself and for this reason he could fall into Tess' trap.

we will never know what Tess exactly did and i will never believe that she didn't influence Max actions to a degree, with human or alien manipulations she did it, she could do it and she had every reason in order to do it.



She walked away from him because she thought that's what he needed.


we can say the same about Max.
what? only Liz had her reasons?
sorry every character had their reasons if you justify Liz then you have to justify Max too.
you're saying that she never did something. you exactly used the word NEVER and i showed you that she did it instead.
now no matter why, if, what etc etc. she still did it just like Max.
just like you showed her reasons i showed you his.




I hate to go polar on you but even Michael ended up supporting Liz's theory. Isabel, Liz, Maria, Michael the entire group was behind her at a certaint point and was beginning to believe in her theory or atleast think about the possiblity of it. The only ones who didn't were Tess and Max. Tess for obvious reasons and Max because he wasn't thinking with the right head.


and again, they weren't Max and they didn't live what Max lived and Liz wasn't the woman they were in love with
also it's not that he didn't believe in her, in the end.
he just needed his time but it happened too and in departure he admitted that he was wrong.

Power? She was helpless as she could do nothing but watch Max and Tess get closer and closer and know that "that was the way things were supposed to be". Power? It was anything but. It was hell on her. She had to bear the burden and hide the fact that Max was tearing her heart out with a butter knife each and every time he and Tess "got close". But she bared it all because he told her to.


yes but she knew that if he had know the truth things could have been different. she got more than an occasion in order to tell him the truth. Liz had more power because after all it was her decision and she knew things that Max didn't know.
Max on the other hand was manipulated by both Tess and Liz. one because she wanted to deliver him to his enemy and the other one because she loved him
it wasn't his fault if Liz had to do what she did. it wasn't *his* decision too. he didn't know about the truth.
Liz made the choice for both of them and he didn't get the chance to make his choice knowing the truth and not what she made him believe that it was the truth. this is just unfair like what Liz lived.

into his place i would have been very angry no matter if she did it for his sake and because she loved him. it still did hurt him a lot and for what? in the end he slept with the enemy, got her pregnant and she almost killed them all. they sacrificed a year of their love for nothing. they suffered for nothing, and he couldn't even be a part of *that* specific decision.
Max was helpless too because he believed into something that wasn't the truth, because someone made the choice for him. he had no control about that "detail"
how you think he felt when in departure he cried?
see it's not that Liz influenced only her life. she influenced Max too. it's inevitable. she made a decision that affected them both and Max didn't make it with her. the difference is that she knew what she was doing and she could change it if she wanted while Max didn't know any of this and not only he didn't know but what he knew was the contrary of the whole truth and Liz created that fake truth.

Max wasn't forced to do what he did. but it's inevitable that his altered reality played a big role and influenced his actions
can you honestly say that if he had know the truth about FMax he would have done what he did? knowing that Liz still loved him and she didn't mean what she said?

even if we use FMax we know for sure that Tess wouldn't get a chance, then. he lived 15 years with Liz as his wife and Tess left roswell because he didn't want her.


It was clear that the very beginning that from the moment Max started recieving those visions that Liz was second to finding his son. He was even willing to seperate from her AGAIN but Liz was the one who held on to their love and chose to do it with him. If anything it was Liz who was holding onto him like a vice while Max was yet again pulling away.


i don't think that when Max didn't want her to be in danger for his fault he did it because Liz was second to him after his son.
max took the responsibility of his actions and he didn't want to put her in danger for a baby that wasn't even hers, then in the end it's exactly what happened when he accepted her help, how can you blame him?

the key is:
Max: I don't know if i could live with myself if anything ever happened to you.

Liz: Max, you're an alien king. What could ever happen to me?


sorry but it seems to me that you totally change the meaning of his words and intensions otherwise i don't understand how this phrase he said can mean that Liz wasn't important for him etc etc.



Control was when Max was willing to get on a ship and never see her again and it was only the fact that the ship was a piece of garbage and couldn't work that he went back to Liz. Again Alien priority number uno while Liz was dust or less and it's only after he couldn't get priority one to work that he went back to her.


but he wasn't using logic.
Max believed that he could get there, find the baby and then return "home" the day after. listen to what he told Kal when he tried to change his mind. he really believe it.
later he realized the mistake he almost did.

is the outcome of the scenes irrelevant here? or maybe it's only when Max is in the scene.


The snapple episode was nice i'll admit but again it further proves that after Busted where he couldn't find the ship that he made her the center of his world again.


he could have tried to find other answers if he wanted. he didn't so much in order to find his son. for many people he wasn't a good father because he should have tried his best no matter what. see no one is happy with Max no matter what he do :lol:

SO is in the very same vein. Samuel Rising was more of the same of I need to find my son and it was only after he realized that he couldn't contact his son that he yet again made Liz a priority.


see, the baby existed. we can't kill him or pretend that he didn't exist and he wasn't in danger.
what you wanted from Max?
again, i'm not a mother but i can understand (not completely because i'm not a mother) how he felt especially since the baby was into a real danger and asked his help
what he was supposed to do? i'm curious because i'm starting to believe that maybe i'm the weird one here. :?
really. what you wanted him to do? what he could do for you?
what you would do in the same situation?


it's obvious that sometimes HE HAD to think about his son too!!! he loved him too, he was his son. for God's sake!
his son was in danger. Liz no. she herself wanted to help him and understood him.
what? had had to be always with Liz like glue? and after all what he did so wrong? he just wanted to help his son it's not that he abandoned her dying body instead of healing her. when?
and in changes and after it Liz was the priority not his son (and this isn't right for me, i didn't want that nor Liz wanted it IMO)

when Alex died he was the priority for Liz while Max, who wasn't in danger, wasn't a priority.
and it's perfectly normal. people are not omnipotent.

it seems to me that we have a different concept of what a priority is.
to me a priority isn't when you have to choose between one who is in danger and one who isn't. and sometimes you can't even choose between two people in danger.
from the english dictionary:

Priority: Precedence, especially established by order of importance or urgency.

who was in danger, his son or Liz? who needed more attention because it was really urgent? a baby lost in the space with a manipulative bitch who wanted to deliver him to an enemy , is the answer for me.
and when Liz was in danger and he had a choice who was a priority? the answer is changes-panacea-chantdownbabylon arch + crash

i also see that she was the priority because for her and her safety he could put himself and Michael and Isabel in danger without thinking twice. he always did it from the start. for some this is not even a good thing. he could die for her. ops, he really did!

again, it doesn't seem to me that she didn't get attentions from him even when he was searching his son.
she got more from Max than any other woman could ever get from their normal boyfriends who didn't have the problems Max had.







Why do you keep bring the toy bit up?


because it's what Max always was for Tess, for the rebels and for many dreamers who are more Liz's fan than Max's


The writers never gave any conclusion that Max was forced into sleeping with Tess.


not what i said.
but his behavior in general was influenced by the alien side just like Michael's in season 3. this is undeniable and even the writers confirmed it.
and this can't be a detail, it's something to add to his personal crisis. he was a mess.



I am happy that Liz got him after everything.


see. then don't be surprised if i used the word "toy" :?


i don't know if i can still continue this discussion. i don't want to appear as the anti-Liz one here just because i see Max's side in the story too.
after all, the point of my "rant" was that they both love each other in the same way and they showed it into different ways and times.
i just tried to defend Max's love for her showing that they were the same, if you look at his POV too and other occasions not just the end of season2. i didn't want to devalue her love for him


Cocogurl wrote:But I don't think that coccy (and others here) can say that they're really sympathetic to both POVs either.


i'm just trying to say that they both loved each other in the same way and i'm just defending Max because i believe that he isn't judged in the same way
i'm analizying his character and i can't do it using Liz's POV. i obviously use his.

then, i'm not the one here who is putting one of them against the other saying who love more.
and yes, i'm really sympathetic to both POV's if i can get the chance to do it and people let me.
but if i have to reply to an anti Max fest you have to understand that it's hard for me to do both. still, it seems to me that i tried my best.
i've always said into my post that Liz was right etc etc and it wasn't really her fault.



The way I see it, they've completely disregarded everything Liz went through, like it was easy for her to just do what she did in EOTW and that was so not the case. And not everything that Max did was completely justified either. Because it wasn't, and you are giving Max excuses for every single thing he did on the show.


i'm not giving excuses for everything he did. and after all you two are doing the same toward Liz! and i'm not the one who started the discussion, i replied to someone else because i didn't agree with the anti Max side of the post. so, obviously, i was forced to temporary take Max's side since the discussion was against him and not Liz.
you don't even notice what Liz did to him. she was totally innocent for you
but she was for the truth of the story but not for Max's. again, he didn't know what we knew and what she knew.

But if you're going to ask me to see more of Max's, I think you can also do the same for Liz.


i did. i do. i tried into this posts. but Liz wasn't the one persecuted here and just like them i'm not onnipotent either. :?


this is a never ending circle.
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Even if my molecules were spread out from here to whatever galaxy my home planet is in,
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They'd all zoom to you, and then I'd re-form." - Max Evans; Roswell High - The Watcher
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Sin
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Re: Who loves who more?? Max or Liz?? and why do you think so??

Postby Sin » Thu Sep 04, 2008 12:52 pm

Coccy wrote:but, again, Max didn't know it.


I understand that. He thought that she didn't love him. Understandable. I just thought his love for her would keep him from being able to move forward and make a life with Tess which is what he was going to do. Ultimately Max made major steps to move on with his life and away from Liz. My point is that Liz couldn't do that. And before you say that her situation was different I don't believe her situation was all that different. Yes she knew that Max loved her but he still chose to leave her. You can tell someone that you love them a thousand times however his actions showed that he was leaving her for Tess and baby. So really how much could that really do for her? They were just words. If there was ever a time for comfort, alone, greif sex I think that would have been the time. Especially since Max was leaving with Tess and she would never see him again and her entire motivation for everything she did at that point was for him. Yet Liz still didn't want to move on. She was still way too hung up on Max and her feelings even after all the mess of ITBAITL and Departure. So I really don't see much of a difference in their situations but I do see a pronounced difference in their actions.

so, it's ok to justify Liz's actions in the name of her original purpose but i can't use it in order to persecute Max for his actions because his reality wasn't like hers or ours.


I'm not persecuting Max. I am just showing that Liz was "faithful" to him and that she loved him soo much that she couldn't see herself with anyone else when everything was done. Threw it all it was him for her. She would have never been happy with anyone else but him.

not really.


Correct me if I am wrong. I'm paraphrasing but I think this was the jist of the conversation.

Max: We have to stand together
Liz: Do you believe that Alex could have been killed by an alien
Max: No
Liz: Then I guess I can't be apart of the group

Liz was willing to work together If Max budged even the slightest bit, it was his refusal of her that caused her to walk away from the group and not accept his "authority".

the priority was Alex and Alex only.


I don't think so. She was willing to work with Max and even compromise it wasn't until Max refused her and then forced their friendship to end that Max made the desicion to leave her. Liz wasn't the one who wanted to end their friendship. Liz wasn't the one who was threatening them and what they meant to eachother. That was all Max. Liz was obsessed with finding Alex's killer. True but it was only when Max shut out even the possiblity that she may have been right that she went bat crazy and pushed even harder to prove to him that she was right. The one who lost the faith was Max. He threw away their friendship because he was unwilling to even think about the fact that she may be right. Liz worked hard to prove to Max that something wasn't right. She did it for Alex but she didn't start pushing hard until Max stopped supporting her.
so he believed in her in departure when he finally admitted that she was right


Not really. He was met with irrevocable proof that something was seriously other worldly and he couldn't live in denial anymore because he had Maria, Kyle, Liz and Michael starring him in the face telling him it was true. That's not believing in her. Believing in her would mean being by her side even when there wasn't dna evidence starring at his face.

when the time was right they both started to believe in each other again


Except Liz never stopped. She always believed in him even when they were in the outs which was why she was so floored by his confessions to her that she lost it completely and lashed out at him in Departure. It was never Liz who stopped believing in Max, but Max who stopped believing in Liz. That was pretty much the entire season two wrapped up in a sentence.

and he was still with her even if their their relationship was strained when she attacked him in cry your name and ITAITB


Perhaps in CYN, but definetely not in ITBAITL or BIY

it's not this. this is what showed what was the priority for her in that moment and into a way it was the last clue that she didn't believe in them anymore. not in that moment. not in heart of mine when she did that speech and in the end she wrote that page of her diary. and it's perfectly normal, for me.


I don't agree. In Heart Of Mine she still loved him. She still wanted to be with him. She still believed in him. But she was still resigned to the fact that she wasn't good for him and that he needed to be with Tess. That he wanted to be with Tess and it was because she loved him that she pushed her towards him. It also didn't help that she saw them kissing not ten minutes after he danced with her. She didn't stop loving him or stop believing in him. She just thought that he needed to be with Tess and it's because she loved him so completely (and the fact that everything was telling her that they needed to be together even themselves) that she let him go. This is what I mean when I say that Liz's love is all consuming and selfless. Max always. Always. Always came before herself. Which was why she completely broke down in Ch-Ch-Changes because she was always looking out for Max's needs and wants before her own while she was slowly dying inside.

well if we see everything from HIS pov he did lose everything. her love, her faith and even her friendship
and it's not that Liz proved HIM the contrary. we know why but Max didn't.
again, the point here is always the same.


He chose to lose everything. What did he expect after his actions? Did he think that Liz was going to sit there and take his verbal, physical and emotional abuse and then just sit down and obey him when everything within her was screaming that something was wrong to her? Max chose to be alone. He chose to isolate himself. He chose to be the victim and he chose to make himself vulnerable. Had he not acted like a fool and damage his relationships with Lizand Isabel then he would have never been in that situation.

FMax asked not present Max!!!!!!!!


I know that. The point I was trying to make was that Liz was always loyal to him. Regardless of anything. She did everything because he asked her to. She wouldn't have done what she did for anyone except Max. She cut her heart out for him and she bled it dry. For him. That's my point. Future Max and regular Max are to different characters. I know that. But it was still "Max" who she did it for regardless.

she should have trusted Max enough to tell him the whole truth

She couldn't tell him that was the entire reason she didn't. She couldn't risk making things worse then what they already were. Also telling Max would have made things worse. Tess could have ended up leaving because she wasn't making progress with Max and then they would have been in the same boat that they were in fourteen years in the future.

ultimately she choose to not be with Max and not give them another chance.


she did that because it was the best thing for him. Selfless love. Not because she didn't want it but because she couldn't have it. It was either be with Max or destroy the world and destroy Max. That's not much of a choice. We all know that Liz would move the world to keep Max from feeling that kind of guilt and pain.

she lost faith for me because she irrationally believed that Max could understand the truth without her telling him. that she could have saved the world and be with him at the same time.


Max couldn't know the truth because she wanted him safe and she wanted to save him from the fate that Future Max had. She never lost faith in him. Atleast not in my opinon. It was Max who lost faith in her.

she should have believed that they could find a solution together instead of making the decision alone.


Why everything was telling her that she couldn't be with him. The orbs, Nasedo, Future Max, Max himself in HOM, memory retrivals, ect. Everything was telling her to give him up because it was the best thing for him and she did. Selfless love.

just like she should have done it in destiny and then in changes.


Destiny was the same way. Nasedo, Orbs and Tess were all saying that he was meant to fufill his destiny with Tess and the four square group. She didn't want to come between that. She loved him enough to realize what he was supposed to do and move away from him so he could do what he had to. She gave him space to do what he needed. Also it wasn't as if Max felt nothing for Tess. He kissed her and he even said that he was attracted and drawn to her and he was even having sexual fantisies of her. Liz was making it easier for him to realize his "destiny" because that's what he needed to do and it's not as if Max fought very hard when they first met Tess. She thought it was inevitable.

As to Ch-Ch-Changes she was a complete basket case both mentally and physically due to the fact that she always put Max above herself and constantly surpressed her very real hurt feelings. She couldn't believe in anything, let alone herself. She was overwhelmed, overtaxed and exhausted to the extent where she couldn't see anything. She was gone and that wasn't her fault. She was barely able to hold herself together and the source of her pain was from Max himself. It wasn't about faith or love then. She obviously loved him then because she was distraught by all the pain that he was causing her. Her relationship with him was destroying her from the inside out and she needed to get away. It wasn't about faith. Liz was in real mental, emotional, spiritual and physical danger to herself and others. That's an entirely different situation. She had no control over that alien influence.

instead she pushed him away all the times and she always made, into a way or another, the decision for both of them.


I will agree that she pushed him away. However the question of faith is off. Ch-Ch-Changes was an entirely different situation, while EOTW and Destiny were both episodes where Liz loved him enough to let him go and to save him. It was never a question of love or faith.

sometimes Liz gave up too


When?
Liz didn't live what Max was living.


No. Liz lived with a much worse and much more grizzily nightmare.

she wasn't in the same situation.


She was in a worse one.

Liz didn't want him anymore.


Liz wanted his friendship and she told him that. He was the one who ended their friendship when he emotionally blackmailed her into not going to Sweden. He caused that isolation himself.

i don't understand why from his pov he shouldn't have tried to survive especially since it seemed that he was supposed to save a planet with her.


If he loved her half as much as he said he did, I don't believe he would have slept with her. For Max Liz was the woman that he loved ever since he was nine years old. He loved her for eight years and then he just gave up. What happended to she was the only one for him and other such words and declarations. Ultimately I feel that all of those romantic moments that they had were lies because ultimately he did end up moving on and playing house with Tess and was a hairs breath away from spending the rest of his life with her. He can tell Liz that he loves her endlessly. But when even the moment that she doesn't obey him or makes things even the slightest bit of resistence towards him he folds. His words of "forever" are nulled. He was going to spend the rest of his life with Tess. He was willing to do things for her and with her that were permenant.

even Liz said that it was ok.


That's Liz's selflessness. She thought that's what Max needed and wanted and she didn't want to make him feel guilty about it in HOM and CYN.
she didn't want to be his friend anymore


Liz always wanted to be Max's friend. That was the only thing she had to settle for. See MITC, CYN and others.

again, Liz was able to move on as well. just because she didn't sleep with Sean (but she almost did) it doesn't mean that we can delete the fact that she tried to be with him and she wasn't indifferent to him. she went to him even in heart of mine.


Two completely different relationships. Sean was no where near as close to Liz as Tess was to Max. Emotionally, physically, spiritually or mentally.

M&L were both on rebound and they tried to survive. this doesn't mean that they stopped to love each other.


I believe that. I just believe that Liz loved Max so much that she couldn't bare to share herself emotionally or otherwise with anyone else.

after he DIED for her and he saw nothing but her as the summary of his entire life.


Because there were multiple times when Max had the choice to choose Liz but she always came up short.
you can't be sure and even departure showed you that she almost did it.


And it also shows that she didn't.
they were nothing when it happened.


You can't be nothing to someone when you love them.
and in departure Max told her that he loved *her* even if she didn't ask him if he was in love with *her* too.


He also didn't tell her that he didn't love Tess. I think that was a blow to her as well. That Max loved her. While Liz wasn't able to love anyone else but him.
but it doesn't automatically mean that she would have stopped if she was into Max's situation


I think it does. Max loved someone else. Max was with Tess. Made a child with her. Was leaving the planet with her. Again Max's "I love you" doesn't do much when he is flying galaxies away from her. His actions proved that his "love" for Tess and baby were worth more to him in Departure. It also showed that Max was never really her's a fact that was reverberated in Control, End Of The World and Destiny as well. I think that would be enough. She lost everything. Max was her world. She did everything for him and I think that would be even worse then the situation that Max was in ITBAITL.

and this is why you will never understand Max and you will never put aside the simple fact that what you took for granted and you knew wasn't what Max knew. he lived a hell and not only for what happened with


I understand that he didn't think that. However he made himself believe that. Liz still cared about him and still wanted to be friends. He was the one that destroyed their relationship and weakened it to the extent that he felt so alone and isolated. He was the one that put himself in that situation. Not Liz. Liz still cared for him and that showed even if it wasn't a romantic love. She still loved him. She still went to him after Alex's death (that was love), she needed him, she needed his support. She needed him to understand. She needed him to believe in her. I don't see how he overlooked this. It was as plain as day especially in CYN and in MITC. Who else did she go to in the middle of the night and knock on the window to the room?


i give up


You completely took what I said out of context. It doesn't mean anything when he was leaving with Tess.
i can't see how Tess could feel loved and could feel devotion if she knew and we knew that Max was unhappy and he was doing what he was doing just because he was forced by duty toward the baby.


What about from Liz's point of view. How do you think she saw it? Bottom line is Max had a wife and a child and he was leaving her. That's what she saw.

again, we have the example of destiny too


I think I went over this.

Max needed her the most and she wasn't there with him.


Except that Max didn't need her. He needed Tess. Atleast that's what all the facts were telling her and she didn't want to impose herself on his destiny. She didn't want to distract him. Also it wasn't as if Max went running after her. For all she knew she was doing him a favor.

she still abandoned him


Max had Isabel, Tess (the love of his life), Nasedo and Michael. He was in a world where she couldn't exist. She wasn't an alien and she couldn't have helped him. She would have only hurt him and his mission.


you should apply on her and her behavior after destiny the same judgment you apply on Max's behavior

Again. Selfless love.
when it's her only one mistake can't change her love


I guess it's because in the end of it all it was always Max for her. All of her actions are stems of his actions. All of her actions were done for the best of his interests. She always put Max before herself. Always. Always. Always. She always believed in him. Where as the one time where Liz needed Max he was no where to be found. Actually that's not true. He was manhandeling her, screaming at her and then destroying thier friendship.

but it seems to me that nothing but the end of season 2 happened here
i don't understand this selective memory used on Max only and every little did he did.


It doesn't. I just think that's where most of the problems in their relationship were. Season one was peaceful, season two was a train wreck and season three was mildly better.
but in the situation they were and the things he believed it's surrealistic to ask him to still believe in her at any cost.


Not anymore surreal then what Max asked in TLAV.
yes, because Liz wasn't controlling and "abusive" when she made for him the decision about their relationship and didn't tell him the truth about FMax and manipulated him in order to push him into Tess' arms.


Totally different motivations. Liz did that to protect him and for his best interests.
Liz wasn't a "jerk" when she acted like if he was the enemy and basically told him that he couldn't accept her theory because it it was true then he was responsible of Alex's death.


Liz apologized for that and asked for him to believe in her. He didn't.

again, don't forget what Max believed
don't take for granted that Max knew the truth and he knew that she didn't mean all the things she told him


Max knew that Liz needed a friend. I would think that would have been enough...
i also find the word "willing" very unfair and insensitive for what Max lived and when that night happened.


Willing meaning he wasn't forced.

Liz knew that she and Max still loved each other


She also knew that Max "loved" Tess and was leaving the planet with her to start a life with her. Really what did the I Love You do. He was still with Tess. They were only words. It didn't change anything and it's not as if he was going to stay with her. She lost him. All of her greatest fears came true. I mean what comfort could she find in that? miniscule if any. Max knew that Liz still wanted to have a relationship with him even if it was only platonic. I would think that would penatrate threw his head but I guess it wasn't enough.

because for him Liz destroyed it all


Liz didn't destroy anything. That was him. He was the one who ended their friendship when he gave her the ultimatem. Prior to that she still wanted to be friends with him.
even in departure when Liz asked Max told her that she was the only woman he could love *that* way (and Liz didn't ask him if he loved *her*)


No. He said not the way I love you. Which isn't really an answer. That implies that he loves her but in a different way. He doesn't say that he doesn't love her. He doesn't even answer the question.

his POV she was the one who wanted it all, the one who didn't want to be with him, the one who ended their relationship twice


She ended their relationship in Destiny one time. She didn't end their relationship another time until season three in Ch-Ch-Changes because she had her breakdown.

this is unfair and not true


We kind of went threw all of the episodes in season three and confirmed this.
IF Max did lose his faith into that moment, Liz did lose it in destiny or changes or heart of mine.


I disagree. She always loved him. Always had faith in him. All three of those episodes she pushed him away for other reasons. Most of them were for his best interests at heart.
exactly. just like Liz's pain was the result of her own manipulations against Max.


Max had his own choices to make. Liz didn't force him to sleep with Tess. He chose to do that willingly.

see i understand Liz too. but it doesn't mean that her manipulations against Max were right


I think she did the right thing. She couldn't have done anything else. There was only so much she could do and she had the world on her shoulders she had to act carefully and telling Max could have ruined everything. Especially since Future Max made it clear to her that she couldn't tell Max anything.

sorry every character had their reasons if you justify Liz then you have to justify Max too.


No there is a difference. There is a sympathetic and understandable motivation for a person to do one thing and then there is a just plain old out of character reaction (ala Max). Liz's reactions were all true to her character. They all made sense. Max's just weren't.

you're saying that she never did something. you exactly used the word NEVER and i showed you that she did it instead


She always loved him and always had faith in him. That's truth.
yes but she knew that if he had know the truth things could have been different.


But things couldn't be different. Hence the point Helpless.
she got more than an occasion in order to tell him the truth.


She couldn't.
Liz had more power because after all it was her decision and she knew things that Max didn't know.


Yes be with Max, end the world, turn him into a shell of himself because he lost his friends and family by lovign her. She totally had a choice! :lol: That was Liz's choice. Her desicion.


Liz made the choice for both of them


It wasn't much of a choice. It would have been selfish for her to jeopardize the future of the world.

see, the baby existed.


I know. I'm just showing that Liz wasn't a priority for Liz for most of season three.
when Alex died he was the priority for Liz while Max,


Liz wanted Max to be apart of it. Max was still important to her. Ultimately it was Max who ended up pushing her away with the fight.
for many dreamers who are more Liz's fan than Max's

I guess I am. I like Liz more because I think overall she is just more true.
i don't want to appear as the anti-Liz one here just because i see Max's side in the story too.


I see Max's side. But I don't sympathsize or even understand many of his actions in certaint episodes and overall I just still believe that Liz loved him more.


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