Who loves who more?? Max or Liz?? and why do you think so??

Love Max & Liz? Then the Dreamer place is where you want to be.

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I hear u

Postby Max/Jason Luver » Tue Jan 16, 2007 10:29 am

\I think your looking at the whole thing through I-Hate-Tess colored glasses. I get your point, and I do think that sleeping with Tess left a deep scar in their relationship. The thing is, so did all of Liz's behavior, even though all of her actions were understandable.

Think about it from Max's point of view: She left him right after he was tortured, when he probably needed her the most. At that time, he was told to be a king, something he really had no idea how to do. So he's just had his whole world ripped out from under him, and now the girl he loves deeply, the girl who promised to be there forever, disappears all summer. So he waits for her and asks Maria every day if she's heard from her, but when Liz finally does come back (and doesn't TELL him she's back) he sees that she has completely moved on with her life, moved on from him (or that's how it appears) and wants nothing to do with the aliens.

Sure you can say that Liz really didn't move on, and that she was all ready to take him back until future Max, but Max didn't know any of that. He saw it as the girl who he loved more than anything had been broken up with him for about a year, had slept with another guy(again, so he thinks), and was very likely never going to come back. And then he's got Tess whispering in his ear how she'd never ever leave and he believed her, so he held on.

I hated that it happened, I hated the whole season 2 basically, but the actions of everyone were understandable.[/quote] max had just went though so much and then everyone not only liz but mostly,abandaned him.

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Re: Who loves who more?? Max or Liz?? and why do you think so??

Postby Sin » Sat Aug 30, 2008 10:41 pm

I kind of think it's obvious that it's Liz. For Liz there was no comparison. Max was it for her. She realized that from the get go. "Don't you realize what you are to me....there's never going to be another you". I don't think Liz ever stopped loving Max and over all Max was always a priority to her and even when things were awful between them I still believe that she had faith in their love and what they created together. I don't fault Liz at all for her actions. She was trying to save the world and she didn't want Max to go threw the pain of losing his family and the guilt of destroying the world. So she held the burden on her own, but even then her love for Max never faded.

Max may have been desperate and alone and what not but at the end of it all I still feel that he lost faith in their love and thier relationship. He lost faith in Liz and his actions towards Liz in BIY and ITBAITL show that Max was never able to see the fact that Liz still loved and cared for him. I think it all comes down to trust and faith and also Liz's ability to forgive. Liz forgave and was willing to sacrifice her entire life to get Max's son. To be honest I really can't see Max doing that for Liz. I can't see him forgiving Liz for sleeping with Kyle. I can't see Max willing to help find Liz's child that wasn't his. But that is neither here nor there because Liz could never sleep with somone who wasn't Max in the first place. That kind of shows who loves who more in my opinon.

Liz didn't see a future with anyone without Max and it was clear that Sean was inconsequential from the beginning. Just like Kyle was to her. For Liz it was always Max. However Max was able to share something intimate with someone else and that completely marrs alot of the Dreamer relationship for me. Along with the fact that Max became this completely different and unlikeable person when that relationship began to take hold.

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Re: Who loves who more?? Max or Liz?? and why do you think so??

Postby Coccy » Mon Sep 01, 2008 7:14 am

firstly, like i said once this thread is a bit useless for me. honestly.
and it isn't so in topic into a dreamer board where bashing against them or one of them isn't allowed by the rules. to me this thread is crazy. that's real sci.fi :lol:

the thing that makes me crazy is how people can be able to see only one pov. when we will be able to apply the same judgment on all the characters and not just one? because sorry me but i find some posts written here a bit contradictory and hypocritical. i don't understand how is possible that people can accuse Max of doing something but then they totally excuse Liz when she did the same.
same goes for the reversed example. people can accuse Liz of doing things that Max did too but for Max it was ok while for Liz it wasn't.
why?


I'm a Dreamer because i love both of them and i believe that they loved each other in the same way and intensity. then they're obviously two different people with a similar character sometimes but yet different personalities.
for example i do believe that Max was the most fragile one into their relationship while Liz was stronger.
i always make the example of the "what if one of them died". think about chant down babylon.
Max would be destroyed and i seriously doubt that he could survive Liz's death. She's too important for him. she's really his everything, he didn't lie when he said it. she's like his balance. notice that all the bad things that happened to him it was when Liz wasn't with him or they weren't together as a couple.
episodes like "chant down babylon" proved pretty enough how much Liz is important for Max. she was the only one thing that saved his soul. he survived only for her. it was only the memories of her that kept his soul alive and in the end he survived just because he wanted to protect her from Clayton. he DIED for her.
he could have saved himself too but he didn't, he did let himself die in order to protect her. and when they were falling notice that they saw flashes of their whole life and his flashes were only about Liz.
even in season 2 when Nicolas mindraped his mind what's the first image he got from Max? the answer is easy: it was Liz.
even Tess admitted that Liz was into his mind everytime and we saw an example of it in departure.

The kind of love Max had for Liz transcended everything especially the common "human" way to love if you understand what i mean. it was total. it's a rarity.
the thing is that Liz was not only the love of his life but his only real friend too. his *life*

Liz on the other hand proved to be stronger when she knew that Max died but it was just on the outside. her love was more human, more realistic. Because she's human.
She could survive his death because she does love other people like her parents and friends, she has other things to care about, things that could help her... give her a reason to be still alive. but i doubt that she could be the same Liz again.
She would grieve the loss into a different way but not less powerful than Max's.
Liz does have a life outside Max, she does have other beloved ones, things that could make her survive the loss. but it would be just an illusion.
one of the important things about Liz's character was that she seemed perfect but she wasn't. she seemed controlled but she wasn't. Only when she found Max she kind of found herself. before him her life was a programmed show where she knew her future but she wouldn't live the moment and be totally herself.

the point of this example is that sometimes love is showed into different ways but it doesn't always mean that one love is stronger than another.
we can't pretend that they would have showed their love for each other into the same way. we have to analyze everything from both their pov.

to me saying that one loves one more is total absurdity and it's against what their story is about. to me the show proved a lot that they both loved each other immensely and they did everything for each other. and they did it into different ways and different times.


now i will reply to an anti Max-reply so maybe i will be forced to take his side a bit more than Liz's. but believe me i'm a Max&Liz apologist
if i can be honest i hate how it seems that we should take one side only and i find very frustrating that everytime this kind of discussion is made i always have to appear as the Max's or Liz's apologist and defend him/her without getting the chance to really and completely analyze both their pov

Sin wrote:I kind of think it's obvious that it's Liz. For Liz there was no comparison. Max was it for her. She realized that from the get go. "Don't you realize what you are to me....there's never going to be another you". I don't think Liz ever stopped loving Max and over all Max was always a priority to her and even when things were awful between them I still believe that she had faith in their love and what they created together. I don't fault Liz at all for her actions. She was trying to save the world and she didn't want Max to go threw the pain of losing his family and the guilt of destroying the world. So she held the burden on her own, but even then her love for Max never faded.


the same goes for Max.
like i said into my example, episodes like chant down babylon proved that into Max's heart there was only Liz and she was not only the love of his life but *his life*. everything.
he never stopped to love her. no matter what. and she was the top of his priorities because when Liz was in danger he cared about no one especially himself.
the pilot is a big example of it, he basically destroyed his cover for her and not only his. and at the time he did it without asking something on return since he couldn't know that Liz would have loved him back. for what he knew she would never even consider him as a love interest.
In "Max to the Max" he basically got captured by the FBI because he wanted to protect her without thinking that he was in danger too.
in "ch-changes" he wanted to contact even the FBI who tortured him like an animal in order to find some answers and heal what was killing her.
then even after his body was dust he still loved and protected her sacrificing himself.


Max may have been desperate and alone and what not but at the end of it all I still feel that he lost faith in their love and thier relationship.


at one point i believe that they BOTH gave up about their relationship
and it's perfectly normal
If Max really wanted to be with Tess and forget about Liz he could have started a relationship with her since the start. after Liz broke his heart in TEOTW he had a whole year with Tess stalking him, still he had to be in the worst time of his life when he did lose even Liz's friendship (because remember that for Alex Liz did put apart even her friendship with Max. then they both understood each other's mistakes.) in order to give her a chance and even before and after it they still weren't a couple and he wasn't neither happy nor sure about what happened. he basically was forced to be with Tess by destiny and then duty toward his son. but even Tess knew and admitted the truth more than once. Max loved and only wanted Liz. end of the story.
he used Tess when he was alone and he believed that he did definitely lose Liz but he was honest enough to never lie about his feelings.
he may be just a boy for Tess but he wasn't the delusional one.

He lost faith in Liz and his actions towards Liz in BIY and ITBAITL show that Max was never able to see the fact that Liz still loved and cared for him.


i don't know. it isn't so simple. i wish it was but then we couldn't get so many interesting topics to talk about.
i don't disagree with your pro-Liz side but i don't understand your way to look at her pov only. what you see in her you don't see it on Max. what you don't see in Max you see on Liz. what you notice that Liz did you don't notice when Max did it too.
it's like if we're talking about Liz's show only, Liz's story only. we can't find justifications and complexity only when it's about Liz and her feelings and then make Max's feelings and situation more simpler and less important. On another board a male dreamer accused we female fans of being biased because we tend to always justify more Liz because she's a woman while Max as the man must be the prince charming all the time. i believe that to an extend it's true. the way many fans saw Liz&Sean relationship compared to M&T is the proof of how we tend to accept Liz moving on but not Max.


the problem here is that people always take for granted that Max's pov in season 2 was like our pov and Liz's but it isn't like that.
into his reality everything was very different and it was FMax and Liz's fault. Max couldn't know the truth. we knew the truth because we saw what Liz did but Max didn't. all he had was what he saw and what Liz "did to him" and what she told him over and over.

episodes like BIY and ITBAITL are against both Max and Liz as individuals not just Max. Liz said things that she shouldn't have said. she did hurt him a lot too and she did it even before those episodes.
i believe that the season proved how Max still had hopes for them but at one point he did lose his hopes and i honestly and humanly can't blame him.
now i'm not saying that everything was Liz's fault. i'm just saying that she had her own role in the damage of their relationship and the mistakes that they both did. yes she wanted to save the world but it doesn't mean that what she did in order to do it was totally and completely right. yes she still loved Max and she didn't mean all the things she told him, they were lies. but Max didn't know about it and he couldn't know, his reality and POV was the opposite and if we were him we would have thought just the same. i find the contrary pretty impossible for a human being without the power to read minds.



I think it all comes down to trust and faith and also Liz's ability to forgive. Liz forgave and was willing to sacrifice her entire life to get Max's son. To be honest I really can't see Max doing that for Liz. I can't see him forgiving Liz for sleeping with Kyle. I can't see Max willing to help find Liz's child that wasn't his. But that is neither here nor there because Liz could never sleep with somone who wasn't Max in the first place. That kind of shows who loves who more in my opinon.


again the show proved, a lot, the contrary of what you said. see the examples above. it seems to me that we watched a different show, honestly.

and i honestly believe that Max, at one point, forgave Liz about sleeping with Kyle. One of my fav scenes from season 2 is the one in "we're a family"
i could never forget the maturity of what he told her. it was amazing because no matter what he believed that Liz did, no matter how much his reality about what she was really doing was different that the real one. he was there. he was able to be her friend. he was able to kind of understand and justify her

MAX: Liz, you...should get to see Sweden. We...I...hold you back.

LIZ: No, Max.

MAX: Kyle was right.

LIZ: That's not true.

MAX: Everyone we touch gets hurt in some way or another. 5 years from now, I don't want you to open your eyes and realize that...that you missed out. You're part of the group. You always will be. But you need to be allowed to...to grow.

LIZ: Why can't you come with me?

MAX: Because I can't. But I'll be watching you, Liz Parker. Wherever you go...and I'll be here when you get back.


this isn't a scene from season 3 where he knew the truth. this is a scene happened into a time where Max believed that she had slept with Kyle and she didn't want to be with him anymore because she wanted normality and she didn't want to die for him.

another scene i love is the one from "a roswell xmas carol"
i want to quote what Jason Katims and Jason Behr said about the last scene between M&L from that episode because no one more than them can know Max as a character.


Jason Katims ----- "That moment to me seems like a transcendent moment. It's the gift he gives to her. It's him thanking her for being there for him and being a friend.
And it's not a moment about them getting together as a boyfriend and girlfriend. It's beyond that(...) he's able to go to her even with everything that they've been through"


Jason Behr ------"It was more about... without you i couldn't become the person I'm now. And I think that throughout the season no matter what has happened.. good or bad.. it made these people who they're i think that's the way it is with life. That choices that we make in our lives and the people that we know help us, in one way or another, be the people we're. And that moment he was thanking her for helping open his eyes to a complete different world. She's a sane voice, some sort of reasoning. The person that he trust the most is Liz who knows him better, I think, than anybody"

i have nothing to add.
maybe the only thing i want to add about the "forgiving" topic is that in season 3 BOTH Max and Liz forgave each other. not just Liz
because don't forget that Liz manipulated him and lied to him. she made a choice without giving him the chance to make his knowing the whole truth. she broke his heart into pieces and not matter if she didn't want to do it and she wanted to save the world. it still happened and Max had the right to know the truth.
still i don't remember i single time in season 3 where Max blamed Liz for what happened between them. not a single time where he kept records of how much she did hurt him in the previous year, how she manipulated him. he never did it. he not only forgave her. he took all the fault and responsibility of what happened.
sorry but if Liz was a doormat in season 3 then Max was one too.
Liz could do no wrongs for him and even when she did hurt him he still forgave her. no, not really forgave. it was like if there was nothing to forgive in the first place, for him. what happened with FMax wasn't a small detail. it was a huge thing that not only Max had the right to know but Michael and Isabel too.

but i don't believe that M&L were ever doormats. i believe that they understood each other and they could do it because they knew into their hearts that they never wanted to hurt the other on purpose.
for Liz to forgive Max completely was harder because there was a baby in the picture. still into a way or another she was able to do it.
i believe that Liz understood Max more than us and if she 'justified' him she didn't because she was a doormat but because she didn't love Max only because/when he was the perfect boyfriend and she could see that she had her own responsibility in what happened to them.

Liz didn't see a future with anyone without Max and it was clear that Sean was inconsequential from the beginning. Just like Kyle was to her. For Liz it was always Max. However Max was able to share something intimate with someone else and that completely marrs alot of the Dreamer relationship for me. Along with the fact that Max became this completely different and unlikeable person when that relationship began to take hold.


to me Sean/Liz and Max/Tess aren't so different. they were both rebounds and inconsequential because they represented the more simple option for M&L but they couldn't change the truth: Max and Liz belonged to each other. end of the story.
paradox is that that both Sean/Liz and Max/Tess proved even more how M&L loved and belonged to each other.

both Max and Liz needed Sean and Tess. they needed another option. true love isn't a choice that you make for a lack of other options. it's when you could choose another person, another option even more simpler, but in the end your heart always belong to another person and it's the one you choose no matter what and who.
without options M&L couldn't really know that they are the love of each other life.



then if i can be "analytical" Liz kissed and "dated" Sean even before Max kissed Tess. not to mention that *she* ended her relationship with Max twice. and into a way Max's 'relationship' with Tess was more 'legit' and understandable than Liz's sudden interest for Sean. after all Tess was Max's 'destiny' and she was his wife in the previous life, she was this duty forced on him from the start from almost a year before they had sex. while Sean just appeared in roswell and Liz suddenly got interested in him (that storyline always felt forced for me. i could clearly see that they wanted to give to Liz this temporary 'toy' since Max had Tess). i have to say that Tess had to await Max way too much xD i mean even after Liz was out of the picture she couldn't have him. In "Max in the city" they basically were alone together all the time but still nothing happened between them. not a kiss, not a glimpse of unresolved sexual tension. She really had to work very hard in order to get into Max's pants and i find humiliating for a woman that she got the man she wanted only when he was a mess and he wasn't totally himself (even the writers said it) and he felt that he had no one. and even after she got pregnant and they almost left the planet together she still didn't have his heart and she couldn't change his love for Liz.

without Alex's death and what it created in the group and if Liz had told him the truth even in ITLAITB things would have been TOTALLY different.
there's no doubt into my mind that Max would have never slept with that beotch
and we have the valid proof of what would have happened if FMax and Liz wouldn't have manipulated him changing the future. so i'm not biased here.



Liz was able to share something intimate like making out with Sean. if i'm not blind or naive she almost had sex with him in departure. not to mention the scene that Max had to see in "disturbing behavior" (it wasn't a big deal and i find it "innocent" but still... ) and how he believe and saw with his own eyes the evidence that Liz slept with Kyle.
the difference between M&L is that Sean wasn't manipulating Liz and Liz wasn't into Max's emotional state. yes sometimes Sean he took advantage of the situation too but he was a normal boy trying to date a girl he liked while Tess totally stalked Max for a whole year, she manipulated him making him believe that his life wasn't real and he was just a "dreamer" (remember the phases from ITLAITB), she took advantage of his misery with no pity from the beginning and she ultimately wanted to deliver him to his enemy and basically tried to force him to leave his only real home using her own son.
unlike Max, Liz could be stronger enough to stop herself before making Max's mistake too. but honestly i believe that she could do it more easily and again just because one is stronger than another one it doesn't mean that one love is stronger than the other one.
and i don't think that our ability to love someone immensely is directly linked to our ability to move on and be on rebound when we lose this person.
sex and love are two totally different things especially when sex with not the person you really love happened into a certain moment of your life when you were extremely vulnerable. I feel lucky enough because i live into a century where sex and love are two different things and most of the people stopped to be hypocritical about this topic. to me it's still a very intimate act that i can't do with someone i don't love but at the same time i clearly see the difference and i can't say that i'm 100% sure that i will never do what Max or other people did into that kind of situation.
but sure enough to me a kiss, a certain kind of kiss and certain kind of words and actions are way more intimate, deep and important then something that is always inevitably ruled by hormones and our "animalistic" nature not to mention the trick that nature created in order to make us procreate :lol:
to me, for example, when Liz saw Max's soul in the pilot it was wayyyy but wayyyy more intimate than having sex with him. and sometimes when i watch some of their kisses i feel like an intruder :lol:

anyway IMO love can be stronger than everything but people's personality can't be the same because we're human after all. people can be able to love immensely but they aren't strong enough to fight for it all the time. love can be strong but not the person who feels it.
i don't know if what i wrote makes sense.. but love no matter how profound it's it can't automatically stop us to make mistakes IMO.

Max never stopped to love Liz. nothing could change their feelings for each other.
he gave up about destiny and his dreams and tried to love the one that seemed forced on him but nothing could change his feelings for Liz. she was the only thing sure of his life.
no matter how much i hate the soap opera storyline with the blond thing i can still find the good thing into it because no matter what, no matter if at one point he even remembered about his past life ( even if IMO those memories weren't real and to me he's not Zan) nothing could change his feelings for Liz and in the end no matter what, who, the circumstances, what he believed that she did, what they did to each other into those 2 episodes, she still was the only one. Tess was destined to fail no matter what. she failed in the first timeline and she failed into this one. and this timeline is even worse than the first one because now no one could ever say that Max avoided destiny and could have loved her. Max experienced destiny and he gave it a chance but it never worked because he loved Liz. there was nothing to add more in order to make it more obvious. M&T would never work because there was nothing real between them and there was no love. too forced. too much. at one point it became really pathetic. they tried to change the future but they couldn't change the core thing of his life and in the end he still married the only woman he always truly loved and wanted. the one who was his free choice and not his duty.
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Re: Who loves who more?? Max or Liz?? and why do you think so??

Postby Sin » Mon Sep 01, 2008 10:56 am

Coccy wrote:i don't understand how is possible that people can accuse Max of doing something but then they totally excuse Liz when she did the same.


I think both are in very different points in season two. While Max was able to "move onward" and give himself to another woman, Liz found herself incapable of doing that. I think that's what it comes down to. For me the fact that Max slept with Tess goes against the entire foundation that was set upon from the pilot forward. Max was never someone who saw sex as a purely animalistic thing. He wasn't someone who freely indulged in the sexual acts and when he did I always thought that it was because he had feelings for the person. The entire Tess storyline did irrevocable damage to the ship in my opinon and while I do believe that both characters could never love others the way that they love eachother I do believe that Liz loved Max more. She was willing to sacrifice everything for him. We have an entire season that testaments her love for this man and she did things that were very hurtful because ultimately he asked her to. Yes. Max saved her life. She saved his. Numerous times as well. The only difference is that Max was an alien and had more control and more experience with his powers. Liz was mostly human for most of the show. So we have to see her love in more human ways. She was willing to give up her life with Max for him because of the fact that she couldn't watch him lose Isabel and Micheal. I think that says alot. I admire Liz alot for her strength and to me "The End Of The World" shows that she is the best heroine that Roswell could have asked for.


Coccy wrote: he basically was forced to be with Tess by destiny and then duty toward his son. but even Tess knew and admitted the truth more than once.


Except he wasn't forced into being with her. He chose to sleep with her without protection. That's part of the entire problem. He willingly commited these heinous actions against his friends and family during ITBAITL and BIY and then he was willing to leave earth even when their was a homocidal alien out there somewhere who was praying on his group. I think that shows where Max's priorities are. His priorites are with Tess and the baby. They came first for him. Making sure they were safe was more important then protecting the humans on earth from an alien killer.

This the same way he refused to believe in Liz when she asked him for help in ITBAITL. I think this is also a major crux in their relationship. Liz is always endlessly supportive of Max and she always believes in him but when she needs him to believe in her he doesn't. He didn't support her during Alex's death never mind that her friend for six years died a horrid, painful death he just brushes her feelings off. Instead he denies her even the smallest portion of understanding or even the possibility that she is right. He man handles her and threatens her to stop her investigation and then he ends their friendship. This is not the Max of season one or even mid season two. This problem aggrevates over time to season three where Liz is again sacrifices endlessly to support Max finding his son and Liz being a cliff note and a doormat for him. All of her problems are either glossed over or ignored until her breakdown in Ch-Ch-Changes.



On another board a male dreamer accused we female fans of being biased because we tend to always justify more Liz because she's a woman while Max as the man must be the prince charming all the time. i believe that to an extend it's true. the way many fans saw Liz&Sean relationship compared to M&T is the proof of how we tend to accept Liz moving on but not Max.


I understand Liz more and find her more understandable because I believe she was the truest version of the character she was when the show first started when season two came around. I see her motivations and I also see that ultimately Max wasn't replaceable for her. For Liz it was Max and Max only. She was true to the love that they shared and I think she had good motivation for her actions. I also like the fact that she never lost faith in what they had. She always loved and cared for him and nothing changed that. I also can't believe the fact that she got over Max sleeping with another woman and created a child with her or that she got over the fact that he treated her so horriablly in BIY and ITBAITL. Max was always a priority for her. I can't say the same for Max. Especially during the tale end of season two.

As to Sean and Liz versus Max and Tess. Sean and Kyle were both insignifcant. They never meant anything. All she did with both of them was end up kissing them and going on a few dates and that compares nothing to the fact that Max slept with Tess, created a child with her and was willing to leave the planet with her forever. It just doesn't.

As to Max being prince charming. Season one set the president for the way his character acted. So I don't see how we are supposed to react when he manhandles, threatens and verbally abuses Liz or when he blackmails Isabel with stories of drugs, cheating and lies to force her to stay in Roswell. Ultimately i don't think those are Max like things to do. But if they are then I have no idea who the Max in season one was and for me the reasons and motivations for his behavior do not excuse or make his actions understandable. The actions he took are atrocious and they need to be called out as such.



for Liz to forgive Max completely was harder because there was a baby in the picture. still into a way or another she was able to do it.


I personally don't see how she did it. But hey that's canon. Who am I to argue.

to me Sean/Liz and Max/Tess aren't so different.


In terms of importance they are like night and day. Max gave something to Tess that Liz could never be apart of. He gave Tess a son, his son. His first born. It was so much more then sex. That is a bond that will tie them together for life and beyond. Sean was never that close to Liz because Liz was never able to be that close to any one but Max.


true love isn't a choice that you make for a lack of other options.


The problem with that is that they established from the pilot that there was no other option from the beginning. Max loved Liz the moment he say her and he loved her for seven years. That's the problem they made in season two when they had Max sleep with Tess and they had him share something so intimate with someone he didn't love. That was so completely incongorous with the Max who was always so romantic, sensitive and in love and would never take that next step with someone who he didn't feel strongly for. It completely underscrowled all of the Dreamer moments in season one and it still does to this day.

if i'm not blind or naive she almost had sex with him in departure.


But she couldn't. I think that's the point i'm trying to make.


sex and love are two totally different things


I think that's the key point. For Max at least in mid season two these point were intricately connected and one wasn't without the other. It seemed that it was the ultimate expression of his love and the fact that he believed that and gave it to....

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Re: Who loves who more?? Max or Liz?? and why do you think so??

Postby Coccy » Tue Sep 02, 2008 5:50 am

Sin wrote:
I think both are in very different points in season two. While Max was able to "move onward" and give himself to another woman, Liz found herself incapable of doing that. I think that's what it comes down to.


well, for Max Liz had slept with Kyle, told him horrible things about not wanting to be with him because she wanted normal and ultimately went against him accusing him of being responsible of Alex's death. sorry but it's a bit different.
and Liz wasn't completely incapable of doing that too (moving on) she *wanted* to do it. For her it was obviously different because she knew the truth. she knew that her and Max still loved each other and they were forced to be apart by that big lie she herself created for not her complete fault. but Max DIDN'T KNOW IT he didn't know. he couldn't. he didn't know. again his reality was the opposite of *our* reality. Max is not us.
looking at HIS pov i find totally normal, believable, human and realistic that at one point after A YEAR of hopes that Liz kept of destroying, he tried to move on. even Liz told him that it was ok. in cry your name she didn't even let him talk about what happened at the prom.

what you wanted from him? he couldn't await Liz forever, he couldn't read her mind. for him she didn't want to be with him and he surely couldn't force her or something. what he was supposed to do? be alone forever? why it was ok for Liz to have her temporarily rebound aka Sean but not for Max? again, after all he slept with the one who was supposed to be his wife into the previous life. someone who manipulated him both in the human and alien way. thank God Liz didn't sleep with Sean.

sorry me but maybe we wanted a bit too much from Max, from a 17 years old boy who not only was hurt by the woman he loved but he was living his own hell because he felt forced to be what he never wanted to be and he felt responsible for things that weren't his fault.

i find this so frustrating. especially since the same judgment will never be applied to the other characters too. so i ask myself why i still try to join into this kind of discussions. into a way or another they will always be incoherent and frustrating in the end. it's like a wall. i knew that for people Max will be always the evil incarnate of roswell while the others are justified for everything. it's like that and it will be always like that.




For me the fact that Max slept with Tess goes against the entire foundation that was set upon from the pilot forward. Max was never someone who saw sex as a purely animalistic thing. He wasn't someone who freely indulged in the sexual acts and when he did I always thought that it was because he had feelings for the person.


and the writers said it too. they said that Max wasn't really himself and only for this reason Tess could jump into his pants. in the scene she casually had a long coat with her even if she was already wearing one and it wasn't so cold outside. she programmed it and she knew that it was the best moment because Max was vulnerable.

again love can be stronger than everything but not the person who feels it.
people can be fragile.

even the fact itself that he didn't use protection is very telling for me. it says a lot about his state, if his words and his misery in the whole episode weren't enough.

see my problem with the judgment of what happened between M&T is that it seems to me that people forget *when* the scene happened.
again, if the real Max wanted her, really wanted her, he could have chosen tons of other occasions. and he was a free man. free to date who he wanted we like it or not. but Max slept with her only in that specific moment of his life when he was extremely vulnerable and she took advantage of it.



while I do believe that both characters could never love others the way that they love eachother I do believe that Liz loved Max more. She was willing to sacrifice everything for him.


again, and what Max did?
i'm blind or he sacrificed everything for her more than once?
even in graduation he wanted to sacrifice himself
it seems to me that a man who let himself die for the woman he loves or he put himself into a real danger for her is irrelevant.

Liz sacrificed her dreams and what she loved outside Max. Max materially sacrificed his life more than once.
they both did everything for each other. this is impossible to deny IMO
it's one of the core point of their relationship from the pilot to graduation




We have an entire season that testaments her love for this man


for us (or some of us) because we knew the truth
for Max? totally the contrary.



and she did things that were very hurtful because ultimately he asked her to.


who asked her?
don't tell me that know it was all Max's fault because his future self from another dimension created that stupid plan with his wife (so it's Liz's fault too?).
because sorry but it's an absurdity. Present Max had no responsibility of what another version of him that doesn't exist right now did or wanted to do.
while present Liz is responsible of what she did. she could have told him the truth but she never did and she pushed him into Tess' arms. and after all that was her plan.
present Max was totally innocent about what FMax wanted to do. he couldn't know what was happening.
and again it seemed to me that FLiz was responsible of the decision as well.



Yes. Max saved her life. She saved his. Numerous times as well. The only difference is that Max was an alien and had more control and more experience with his powers.


sorry butmore experience with the powers is irrelevant for me O_o
i can't see why it should make a difference here.
they both saved each other and they both put each other in danger in order to protect each other. who was alien and who not is irrelevant here. they both had everything to lose but they didn't care. Liz her dreams, normality and family. Max his cover and his own life not to mention Michael's and Isabel's life as well.


Liz was mostly human for most of the show.So we have to see her love in more human ways.


and?
Max was half human and half alien. he didn't even know who the heck he was, what was his real purpose and if he had the right to love who he wanted and to live the life he wanted to live. he felt like a monster for the most part of his life.
but this is irrelevant here.

Her love was in the human ways. his love was in the human and alien ways too. so? XD i don't understand.




She was willing to give up her life with Max for him because of the fact that she couldn't watch him lose Isabel and Micheal. I think that says alot. I admire Liz alot for her strength and to me "The End Of The World" shows that she is the best heroine that Roswell could have asked for.


i don't disagree.
but i have to disagree when you use this against Max. because, again, Max didn't know what WE knew. from his POV Liz was a confusing beothc and not a heroine. she lied and manipulated him sending him mixed signals, confirmed him over and over that she didn't want to be with him and it was ok for her if he moved on with Tess.
i'm sorry but these aren't details to forget

we can't analyze what happened taking in consideration only her pov because, again, for Max the reality of the story was totally different and she was the one who created *that* reality. so it was amazing what she did. i respect her too, i admire her strong personality and how selfless she was. but still it wasn't right what she did to Max and if their relationship was damaged it was her fault too and she knew it. again, Max couldn't know the truth and what she was really doing. into a way she was selfish and abusive because she didn't let him choice. but this isn't accurate. it's complicate because it wasn't her fault... but again he didn't know the truth so it wasn't his fault too.

so, for the sake of a discussion against what Max did, we can't justify Liz's actions based on what only Liz, Maria and we fans could know. we have to take in consideration what Max as a character of the story and not as a fan with the power to know and watch everything in the story of all the characters, knew.

if Max had slept with Tess knowing what Liz was *really* doing, then we could justify Liz and her role to the damage of their relationship
But unfortunately (and this is the problem here) for Max ( who didn't know the truth) Liz was a selfish confusing beotch who keep on telling him confusing things and she broke his heart into pieces from way before the night in the observatory. (maybe not really a bitch but she wasn't an angel)
and even with everything he believed that she did to him and their relationship he still had hopes and tried to be her friend for the whole year. but then there're some limits even for Max. what is enough is enough! from his pov and what he believed was the truth i will never really blame him. most likely i couldn't be a friend with Liz and forgive her (before knowing the truth) come on... i don't know how he could be able to do it for the most part of season 2. the must be really soulmates
again if Liz was a doormat then Max was one too. but, again, i don't believe that they were doormats.





Except he wasn't forced into being with her. He chose to sleep with her without protection. That's part of the entire problem. He willingly commited these heinous actions against his friends and family during ITBAITL and BIY and then he was willing to leave earth even when their was a homocidal alien out there somewhere who was praying on his group. I think that shows where Max's priorities are. His priorites are with Tess and the baby. They came first for him. Making sure they were safe was more important then protecting the humans on earth from an alien killer.


no he wasn't forced and i don't remember that he ever tried to justify himself like that. he took the responsibility of his actions completely. something that not all the characters were able to do, i have to say.
but again, we have to look at what happened taking in consideration the moment where it happened and why.

as for leaving the planet. what the heck he was supposed to do? let his baby die?
he couldn't do both. he tried to kill the killer first but he had no time. i can't be angry with him because he wanted to save his son O_O
he saw that he was dying, it was hid duty to save him. again, what he was supposed to do?

Max was not God. he was not omnipotent. what we wanted from him? :shock:

also, if i remember well when Michael thought that he was in the same situation (Isabel pregnant by his baby) he was willing to give up his relationship with Maria and everything in order to be with Isabel and their supposed baby. and Michael was with Maria while at the time Tess was pregnant Max wasn't into a relationship with Liz. if we want to be honest, even friendship between them wasn't there anymore. they loved each other yes. but they weren't neither a couple nor an almost couple.

before evil Tess why Max should have abandoned his son and Tess? why?
from his pov he used a woman who loved him (while Liz put apart even their friendship) and was there for him all the time when he had no one. the woman got pregnant for his fault and she and the baby were dying.
so what? he should have abandoned them in order to kiss Liz's shoes asking her to be with him again even if she didn't want to be with him? (from his pov)

i don't understand.
and it's not that he was happy. he was miserable but he had no choice.




This the same way he refused to believe in Liz when she asked him for help in ITBAITL. I think this is also a major crux in their relationship. Liz is always endlessly supportive of Max and she always believes in him but when she needs him to believe in her he doesn't.


well what Liz really provided? not what she really needed to finally reveal. she wanted him to believe in her when even her best friend who knew about FMax didn't believe in her at the beginning and she thought that she was crazy or something. How Max could?
he always believed in her but there're some limits. she touched his worst fear in the worst time of his life. Max is not a robot, he's not perfect. nor it's Liz.

the core point of that situation is that IMO both Max and Liz felt responsible of Alex's death. for different reasons.
so they both wanted to believe in the theory that didn't make them responsible.
they both needed time and rationality
in departure they both understood their own mistake in the whole situation



He didn't support her during Alex's death never mind that her friend for six years died a horrid, painful death he just brushes her feelings off.


it's not completely true.
at the beginning he comforted her into his room. the problem was made when Valenti gave him that file (that was believable. don't forget that Max wasn't the only one who didn't believe into Liz's theory) and Liz accused him of being responsible of Alex's death if an alien had killed him

i still perfectly remember the scene where Max failed to heal Alex. his eyes, his hand with his blood. the way he looked at Liz saying her name.
how you can say that he really didn't care about her feelings? i dreamed the scene? i dreamed his eyes, his tears? it's not possible.

it was horrible for him and he felt responsible. he couldn't heal her friend. they were all awaiting for his miracle and he failed. and no one told him that it wasn't his fault. who comforted him? Alex's killer.


again it seems to me that you keep on looking at Liz's POV only.
you really avoid everything related to how *Max* felt.
what is important here is only what Liz and only Liz felt. because she wanted to save the world so she was justified no matter what. no matter if she herself created the mess she found herself into. no matter if she lied and manipulated.
Liz can be vulnerable but Max no. he can't. he must be a perfect robot.
the prince charming always on her knee even when it wouldn't be realistic.



Instead he denies her even the smallest portion of understanding or even the possibility that she is right.


no none is perfect and no one can do the right thing all the time.
Max couldn't accept that an alien killed Alex. it was too much for him. he felt responsible.
is this right or rationale? no it isn't. just like it wasn't right that Liz felt responsible too (and she felt like that for me. because from her pov she changed the future, a future where before her change Alex was alive)


He man handles her and threatens her to stop her investigation and then he ends their friendship.


well... i don't like the way he used but i tend to believe that he was right about both Liz and Isabel
he was the leader and he had the duty to protect the group. but everyone started to think only about their self. both Liz and Isabel could put the group in danger with their decisions.
lets say that he was right but he was totally wrong for the way he used in order to make them understand what they were doing.

again, everyone needed some time. they were living their own hell and they couldn't completely understand each other in that moment.




This is not the Max of season one or even mid season two.

no it isn't.
even the writers said it. he was influeced by his alien side and Tess' manipulations.
this is not my opinion but what the writers said. too bad that no one cared about it.
we use the alien side crisis only when we need to justify Michael's actions in season 3. because king Michael was himself... he was sooooo good so more good than Max into those episode.


This problem aggrevates over time to season three where Liz is again sacrifices endlessly to support Max finding his son and Liz being a cliff note and a doormat for him. All of her problems are either glossed over or ignored until her breakdown in Ch-Ch-Changes.


they both tried their best. he tried to be a good boyfriend and a father. he had a son in danger and she herself wanted to help him even when he didn't want. she herself ignored her feelings. then when the time was right she got her own time.

again, it seems to me that only Liz's feelings are important here
Max had a son lost in the space with a crazy mother who wanted to deliver him to their enemy. a son who asked his help pleading him to save him. he felt like s*it because he failed and he couldn't help his own son. but this is unimportant isn't it? who cares about what Max's felt? it's Liz's show only.
I love her. i really do. she's my fav female character ever. but i refuse to analyze roswell and all the story from her pov only.
maybe Max had to be with Liz 24/24 and kiss the way she walked in .
because sorry but in the situation he was he proved to be a good boyfriend and he made her happy. it's not that he was searching his son all the episodes.
and it's not that we can delete the innocent baby. he did exist and he was in danger. this was a big fat priority for a father.
then when Liz was in danger or her father made her life a hell she was the priority




I understand Liz more and find her more understandable because I believe she was the truest version of the character she was when the show first started when season two came around
.

for us. but not for Max and the characters who didn't know the truth about FMax


I see her motivations and I also see that ultimately Max wasn't replaceable for her. For Liz it was Max and Max only. She was true to the love that they shared and I think she had good motivation for her actions. I also like the fact that she never lost faith in what they had. She always loved and cared for him and nothing changed that. I also can't believe the fact that she got over Max sleeping with another woman and created a child with her or that she got over the fact that he treated her so horriablly in BIY and ITBAITL. Max was always a priority for her. I can't say the same for Max. Especially during the tale end of season two.


like i said in the previous reply i totally disagree. but not because i don't believe that Liz wasn't like that. i don't believe that Max didn't the same thing.
he pretty proved the contrary of what you said. for some even more than Liz because unlike her he really could have loved another woman but even when he had a son with her, she supported him endlessly (he couldn't know that she wanted to kill him instead) and got memories from his past life where it seemed that he loved her, still he always loved only Liz and even Tess knew it and admitted it more than once.
and with examples like an episode like chant down babylon i don't know what we need more in order to see how much he loved Liz in the same intensity she loved him



As to Sean and Liz versus Max and Tess. Sean and Kyle were both insignifcant. They never meant anything. All she did with both of them was end up kissing them and going on a few dates and that compares nothing to the fact that Max slept with Tess, created a child with her and was willing to leave the planet with her forever. It just doesn't.

it does for me. because Max never dated Tess and, again, after all she was his wife from the other life and the woman he was supposed to be with
it's not that he slept with her after a happy date or something like that. it was a mistake, something not programmed that happened as the result of a bad situation and a real personal crisis of Max as a human and alien.

again, i don't understand why for Liz it should be ok to move on but not for Max especially after what he lived and believed. and Liz was the one who ended things between them more than once. no matter her reasons.


As to Max being prince charming. Season one set the president for the way his character acted. So I don't see how we are supposed to react when he manhandles, threatens and verbally abuses Liz or when he blackmails Isabel with stories of drugs, cheating and lies to force her to stay in Roswell. Ultimately i don't think those are Max like things to do. But if they are then I have no idea who the Max in season one was and for me the reasons and motivations for his behavior do not excuse or make his actions understandable. The actions he took are atrocious and they need to be called out as such.


it's not that Liz acted as a saint. she told him horrible things too. all the characters were abusive more than once. even saint Alex when he blackmailed Liz when she didn't want to tell him the truth about Max.
this doesn't mean that all the characters are abusive people. just because they did lose control sometimes and they're not always perfect and flawless it doesn't mean that they're all evil incarnate. they're human.
speaking of Max, i do believe that (paradox) he's one of the most human characters of the show. he's a good example of how humans can be vulnerable and even the best man of the world can lose control.

the moral is that no one is perfect and Max had the right to be not perfect just like everyone.
but it seems to me that every roswell character is justified even for the worst actions. all but Max of course.

for this reason i said "prince charming". because for me most of the fans saw him like this projection of the perfect boyfriend of our dreams who will love "us" no matter what we do. because in real life real boyfriends will suck most of the time :lol: so when Max proved to be human too and, after all, he was realistic too, he destroyed this illusion, this dream. the truth is that a man can be both a prince charming and a realistic human being with flaws and who will make mistakes just like everyone.
not to mention that we're talking about teenagers!

the thing i appreciate in Max is that unlike others he always took the responsibility of his actions. he's never beyond offering apologies to the ones he felt that he did hurt. he did it even to Kal, someone who basically threatened him and for his fault Max and Liz got arrested in busted. for example Max knew that Kal was mean to him and he never did his duty as a protector and only put them in danger for his selfish reasons but he could still see that no matter what it was still wrong the way he wanted to force him into doing something that he didn't want to do. no matter if his reasons were stronger and important because he had to save his son.

IMO Max is the character who suffered the most. he simply couldn't find peace. and it's not that the writers always gave him the time to resolve *his* own problems. he had to get over the white room, his death and the loss of his son along with other fears and a sense of failure as the leader he was supposed to be. with everything he went through. with everything *they* went through it's amazing that M&L could be together in the end and they won this battle against not only the external obstacles that they found into their way but against their self too. against their own fears and their own problems as individual people. as individual people who weren't perfect and needed to grow up




I personally don't see how she did it. But hey that's canon. Who am I to argue.


Liz knew that she had her own responsibility and she understood that what happened wasn't really only Max's fault. i don't want to be rude with this but... thank God Liz wasn't like we fans!!!

she understood what leaded him to that mistake and why it happened.

if Max was really a cheater then i doubt that she could forgive him. but she knew that he wasn't. and it's not that Liz was delusional because this is the truth no matter how much it could, still, hurt.

In terms of importance they are like night and day. Max gave something to Tess that Liz could never be apart of. He gave Tess a son, his son. His first born. It was so much more then sex. That is a bond that will tie them together for life and beyond. Sean was never that close to Liz because Liz was never able to be that close to any one but Max.


a baby is not a prize to win. :? it wasn't a game between Tess and Liz in order to see who could win the toy aka Max Evans and his "happy swimmers" :?
Liz and Max will have all the children that they want (and in the books they do, two children into a future more peaceful )
Max gave to Liz something that is way more important than a night of sex without love with a woman who saw into his mind that he wanted to be with someone else. something more real and sincere than a baby created for mistake and not for love.

i know many people without children who love each other immensely. i mean, what's the point here?
i don't really like where this discussion is going :?

The problem with that is that they established from the pilot that there was no other option from the beginning. Max loved Liz the moment he say her and he loved her for seven years. That's the problem they made in season two when they had Max sleep with Tess and they had him share something so intimate with someone he didn't love. That was so completely incongorous with the Max who was always so romantic, sensitive and in love and would never take that next step with someone who he didn't feel strongly for. It completely underscrowled all of the Dreamer moments in season one and it still does to this day.


i already said why i disagree, i guess :lol:

to me a relationship with no other possible options to choose is not real and M&T and S&L developed well or not, they were important and they proved even more that M&L belonged to each other because no matter what and who, nothing could change their feelings for each other.

fairtale? yes. but they're real too. it's the reason of why i love them

i can't say that a couple is real love if they never faced any obstacle



But she couldn't. I think that's the point i'm trying to make.


she couldn't because she could couldn't do it - OMG this phrase is a mess xD

Liz had Max's example too. she could see what would have happened and she was strong enough to stop herself
but the example proved that even the strongest person like Liz seemed to be can fall in the trap created by temporany vulnerability.
and lucky her Sean wasn't Tess. he didn't manipulate her even in the human way.
the example should make understand that everyone into Max's situation could have made this kind of mistake. Liz stopped herself but it was more "easy" for her. i don't like the choice of words... not really easy. i don't want to devalue her feelings. it's just that she wasn't living exactly what Max lived and the guy he used wasn't a manipulative alien like Tess who had the purpose to seduce her at any cost. this must make a difference to a degree, this could be a reason of why one was strong enough to stop and the other one couldn't. this doesn't mean that one love was stronger than another.


I think that's the key point. For Max at least in mid season two these point were intricately connected and one wasn't without the other. It seemed that it was the ultimate expression of his love and the fact that he believed that and gave it to....


it's not that we are always the same. i'm sure that Max believed that it was important. he believed it.
but it doesn't mean that he always believed it and he always believed it with everyone. it doesn't mean that he always followed his feelings. we always have the best intentions, the best opinions about what we believe and what we want to do. but the truth is that we're not perfect and sometimes we can contradict what we wanted to be or believe. because we're human and we can't control everything.

i don't really think that it was soooooo important for him and the ultimate expression of his love because honestly it seemed to me that he had other ways more meaningful than sex. if you ask me i've always thought that Max tried to create with a physical act what wasn't there into an emotional way that was more intimate for him. with Liz he was connected to her into a natural spontaneous way from the start. he didn't need the physical act in order to be closer to her,in order to create something between them, in order to *feel* her. in order to create love between them. while with Tess there was no emotional link at all and its the reason of why what happened didn't make sense and it was too sudden and based on nothing real created before it. they didn't even really know each other. they were like a couple created into a reversed way. instead of firstly creating the emotional connection, the real emotional bond, they did it starting to the physical one. M&T were so far way, emotionally, that he needed the physical act in order to feel her or try to feel something. something that he didn't need with Liz. he saw her, he fell in love. he knew that she was the one. there was an emotional bond between them even before they kissed the first time. he gave her his soul, they saw into each other's souls.

again, he didn't sleep with Tess into a random moment of his life. he did it when he was extremely vulnerable and she took advantage of it because it was her goal from the start. I can't torture him alive just because he was human and he did a mistake that he payed. a mistake that Liz almost did too.
and it's not that all roswell characters were angels.

i'm not hypocritical enough to believe that people can't be infidel with their mind too. sometimes it's even worse for me.
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They'd all zoom to you, and then I'd re-form." - Max Evans; Roswell High - The Watcher
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Sin
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Re: Who loves who more?? Max or Liz?? and why do you think so??

Postby Sin » Tue Sep 02, 2008 12:31 pm

Coccy wrote:what you wanted from him? he couldn't await Liz forever, he couldn't read her mind. for him she didn't want to be with him and he surely couldn't force her or something. what he was supposed to do? be alone forever?


It's not about Max waiting for Liz forever. Or perhaps it is. My entire point is that ultimately for Liz no one compared to Max and Liz could never do what Max did. Liz could not sleep with someone who wasn't Max. She just couldn't do it. Max more times then not was always the most important thing to her. That's why she couldn't move on. that's why she couldn't sleep with Sean. That's why she committed criminal acts for Max to find his son. That's why Liz couldn't see anything besides Max for her in terms of a love relationship. Yes she dated. But Max wasn't replaced. He wasn't replaceable for her and Max was always more important to Liz then she was to Max. Let's just take a look at Departure. Max leaves her in danger with a homicidal alien hunting them in Roswell. She is defenseless and most likely would have died with that alien on the loose but his main priorites are Tess and the baby. Liz wasn't his priority and Liz wasn't his priority in Control either. In Control he was willing to jump on a space ship and never see her ever again. He ignored her calls and he didn't even tell her that he was leaving earth. Liz wasn't a priority to him until after he lost her. But for Liz Max was alaways a priority to her. She may have pushed him away after Alex's death but he was still a priority to her.

Max was only able to fully be with Liz after all of the "other" things were dealt with. Liz didn't mean enough to him ultimately. Tess came very close to taking Max away from Liz forever and she didn't even have to try very hard. Max could have left in departure and never seen Liz ever again and he would have done it without looking back. I don't think Liz could have done that. Liz always loved him, she had faith in him. I think her love was greater by vast amounts.

why it was ok for Liz to have her temporarily rebound aka Sean but not for Max?


It's not about the rebound. It's the fact that Max intimately gave himself to Tess. While Liz couldn't. I think that shows that Liz couldn't see herself with anyone but Max. While Max was willing to do that with Tess.

i knew that for people Max will be always the evil incarnate of roswell while the others are justified for everything. it's like that and it will be always like that.


I love Max. I don't think he is evil incarnate. However the question is who loves who more? I'm just supporting my answer. I love Max as a character and that's why I hate the fact that at the end of season two he was destroyed for plot purposes. I can even understand some of the reasons why he did what he did. However I do believe that he gave up on Liz and there love. I don't believe Liz did that. Liz's love was absolute and all consuming. That's why she could never have been with anyone else. That's why it hurt her so much to see that Max slept with Tess and created a child with her. That's why she got past that and even supported him when he made the desicion to give Zan away. The answer to this question for me is Liz. She was the one who was always true to her love and her feelings for Max. She was faithful to her love for him.




again, and what Max did?


I am not trying to overlook all that Max did for Liz by any means. But I do have a hard time swallowing the fact that Max was going to leave Liz on earth with a homicidal alien that was attacking their group. I also have a hard time swallowing the fact that Max was willing to leave Liz and never see her again and give up the "love of his life" to fly across the galaxy not once but twice. Max may have sacrificed for her but Liz did to. Liz sacrificed her entire life for him. She sacrificed her dreams of Harvard, she sacrificed her relationship with her family, her high school career, her future, her happiness, and her very life. Yes. Max did save her life. But Liz gave him her's and then saved his life as well. Liz supported him and she loved him unconditionally. She was true. There was no one else for her. Not Kyle, not Sean. No one.


it seems to me that a man who let himself die for the woman he loves or he put himself into a real danger for her is irrelevant.


It's not. Irrelevant that is. Liz would do the very same for him.


Her love was in the human ways. his love was in the human and alien ways too. so? XD i don't understand.


I just wanted to get the point across that if Liz had alien powers she would have saved his life and sacrificed her life for him just as well. :lol:

but i have to disagree when you use this against Max.


I am not using it against him. I am just showing what Liz did for Max. Showing her actions and her love for him. Showing why I believe that she loved him completely.

as for leaving the planet. what the heck he was supposed to do? let his baby die?


I was showing where his priorities were. It was Tess and Baby. It didn't matter that Liz was in very real danger with an alien hunter on the loose willing to kill her. He had to go to Antar. I didn't see much of his love there. Max wasn't thinking about Liz. He was thinking about Tess and his son. They were more important then her. I'm showing the dynamic difference between them both at that time. Liz always thought Max was important and that he was a priority that was her drinving motivation in season two. In all the seasons actually. Liz always reacted to Max. Max was pretty much her world and her universe. It wasn't the same for Max. Especially during Departure, ITBAITL and BIY.

Tess was pregnant Max wasn't into a relationship with Liz. if we want to be honest, even friendship between them wasn't there anymore. they loved each other yes. but they weren't neither a couple nor an almost couple.


I can't see Liz walking away from Max when he needed her. It wasn't even possiable for her. Max walked away from Liz when she needed him. That was a reality.

before evil Tess why Max should have abandoned his son and Tess? why?


It's not about abandoning them. I am just trying to show that they were more important to him then Liz was. Which wasn't the case for Liz and her feelings for Max.

well what Liz really provided?


What did Max provide when he was trying to tell Liz that it wasn't his fault he shoved his tounge down Tess' throat?

Max is not a robot, he's not perfect. nor it's Liz.


It just shows that Max wasn't there for Liz when she needed him. Where as Liz always supported him and didn't need a bag full of evidence to stand by him. Even when Max thought that he could hear his son threw the autistic boy in the christmas episode Liz still stood by him despite all evidence to the contray.

you really avoid everything related to how *Max* felt
Liz can be vulnerable but Max no. he can't. he must be a perfect robot.
the prince charming always on her knee even when it wouldn't be realistic.


I take Liz's side during Alex's death because she lost more. She was his friend and she loved him and she brought him into the alien world so I feel more for her loss then for Max's because Max was barely his friend to begin with. Liz was much closer to Alex then Max was and it also doesn't help that he was attacking two of the closest people Alex had ties with after his death Isabel and Liz. SO maybe I am being insensitive to his feelings. But then again he was insenstive to both Isabel and Liz's feelings as well.
it's not that he was searching his son all the episodes.


Liz was a side note until she started sparkling with alien energy and chewed him out for the hurt he caused her. Prior to that she was always secondary to Max finding his son or going to Antar.

and with examples like an episode like chant down babylon i don't know what we need more in order to see how much he loved Liz in the same intensity she loved him


CDB is a nice episode. There are a whole bunch of nice Liz/Max episodes. But ultimately they're in a vaccum and they only happen when all of the "other things" in their relationship (i.e. Max's priorities) are dealt with.

the moral is that no one is perfect and Max had the right to be not perfect just like everyone.
but it seems to me that every roswell character is justified even for the worst actions. all but Max of course.


It's not a question of being justified. It's that his actions were completely wrong and he had no right to act that way and him acting that way was not understandable or sympathetic.

i know many people without children who love each other immensely. i mean, what's the point here?
i don't really like where this discussion is going :?


The point is that Max shared something with Tess that Liz could not. He gave Tess a piece of himself and he shared that part of him with her. Not only did he sleep with her but he created something with her and connected with her in the most complete act of sharing something with another person. That's something that Liz could never do. That's the major difference between Sean/Liz and Tess/Max. You say that Liz/Sean were on equal footing but they weren't. They aren't. Liz never let things get that far. Liz never wanted that with any one but Max. That's what proves to me that Liz loved Max more. She couldn't begin to even share that part of her with anyone but him.

Liz stopped herself but it was more "easy" for her.


I don't think it was. Liz simply couldn't see herself with anyone but Max. That's my opinon on it. That's why I think she loves him more then he loves her among the various other things I've stated.

this must make a difference to a degree, this could be a reason of why one was strong enough to stop and the other one couldn't. this doesn't mean that one love was stronger than another.


No. Liz couldn't move on from Max. Max found it easier to sleep with Tess, create a child with her and then leave earth forever with Liz in danger, while Liz couldn't even go to third base with Sean.

they were like a couple created into a reversed way. instead of firstly creating the emotional connection, the real emotional bond, they did it starting to the physical one. M&T were so far way, emotionally, that he needed the physical act in order to feel her or try to feel something. something that he didn't need with Liz. he saw her, he fell in love. he knew that she was the one. there was an emotional bond between them even before they kissed the first time. he gave her his soul, they saw into each other's souls.


I agree with this. This is why I believe Liz was incapable of moving on. She never wanted a physical or emotional relationship with anyone else but Max. While Max wanted to have all of that with another woman. Liz only wanted Max. Where as Max wanted to move on. Liz couldn't. Max could.

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Re: Who loves who more?? Max or Liz?? and why do you think so??

Postby Cocogurl » Tue Sep 02, 2008 9:13 pm

I kinda have to agree with Sin on this one. I'm always hearing about much Liz hurt MAX or how she betrayed MAX. But it feels like no one's even bothering to understand the things that Liz went through and still has to go through because of her love for Max. Max wasn't the only willing to sacrifice his life for the one he loved. I seemed to remember the time when Liz was going to help break into the White Room to save Max, which could've gotten her killed. Or when she was willing to jump off a bridge with Max, which could've also gotten her killed. She was also willing to rob a convenience store with him, which if she didn't get killed accidentally, she would've been in prison for most of her young life.

And as for the relationships with M/T and L/S, it really isn't about rebound. With Liz and Sean, you could pretty much see that that wasn't going anywhere. She always kept Sean at a distance, because she knew in her heart that he would never compare to Max. Even in Departure, she still couldn't bring herself to actually sleep with him, even when she really was at her lowest and most vulnerable. I think in that moment, she knew that she would probably always be alone because she couldn't settle for anything less than the person she truly loved and sacrificed everything for. But Max's relationship with Tess was completely different. They were married in a past life, and not only gave himself intimately to Tess, but he ended up creating a child with her in the process. He created this permanent bond between them. And no one forced him to do that. He slept with her all on his own. So what ever Sean and Liz had, it doesn't even come close to comparing what Max shared with Tess.

And I understand Max's POV too. In his eyes the woman he loved slept with another guy and moved on, but what pisses me off about that is that he lost complete and total faith in her because of that. It's like every good thing she ever did for Max, Michael and Isabel just didn't matter because of this one thing. But Liz never stopped believing in Max or supporting him. Not for one second. It was her faith and love for Max that made her do what she did in EOTW. She believed that FMax had to have good reason to come back in time and do what he did, that he was truly doing what was best for them. And I believe that you would have to love someone A LOT to just sacrifice your entire life's happiness. But Max didn't have enough to believe that MAYBE Liz was right about Alex. He should've put his own personal feelings aside for Alex at least. Alex was always there for the pod squad even when he didn't know the truth about them yet.

And as for who loves who more, I'm not gonna get into that argument because this isn't so much about who loves who more. I believe they both loved each other the same amount. I think this more about who had more faith in who. And I believe that Liz had way more faith in Max than he had in her.

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Re: Who loves who more?? Max or Liz?? and why do you think so??

Postby Sin » Tue Sep 02, 2008 9:32 pm

I agree with you. I think you may have said it better then I did. Liz did have more faith in Max then Max did in Liz. Out of the two I just think that Liz's love is absolute and all consuming and unconditional. It really knows no bounds. She couldn't stop. She couldn't move on and I think that's why I believe that Liz's love was greater over all. I'm not discrediting Max's feelings. But I do think that Liz was the one that was more invested. Max was her everything and the only man she could see herself with. Liz has gone threw so much for loving Max. She had to sacrifice everything that mattered to her but more then that she gave her life to Max. Max was Liz's life. She made Max her entire life her present, her future, ect. even in season two all of her actions stemmed from the fact that she loved him and wanted to do the right thing for him. She loved him enough to give him up. I really don't think Max could ever find someone who loved him so completely like Liz did. No one could love him as much. I just don't think it was possiable.

I also think you hit the nail on the head when you said what Liz still has to go threw by loving Max. It's not easy loving Max, especially when you see what one has to give up and also I can't imagine how Liz would have felt if Max chose to keep Zan. I don't want to think about it, I think that's just too much and I don't think she should have had to go threw that. But I think that was a real possibility and I have no doubt that she would have stepped up and took responsibility as a mother figure for him if that's what Max wanted to do.

If Liz had powers like Max did I have no doubt that she would have risked her life for him (she did that even when she was human with no abilities) and I have no doubt that she would have risked everything to heal him and protect him. Liz became a criminal for Max to find his son. She turned her entire life and the person she was inside out for him. She threw away her future to marry him and live on the run. There's just soo much she did for him.

What hurts the most for me as a dreamer fan was that Max slept with her and then to add insult to injury without protection which resulted in Zan. But it's canon so it can't be helped but it still stings to this day. Especially when you take in his behavior after he slept with Tess and how he verbally abused Liz in BIY attacking her to the extent of running her out of the Valenti home. So I don't see how anyone could compare Sean and Liz to Max and Tess especially when they pretty much created an entire home while Liz could barely date Sean seriously. Max was willing to leave the planet with her and never see her again.

I agree with you in losing complete faith in Liz. That was even worse.

I agree with alot of your points and I echo the sentiments completely.

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Re: Who loves who more?? Max or Liz?? and why do you think so??

Postby Cocogurl » Tue Sep 02, 2008 10:50 pm

Thanks, Sin. It's hard to find people on my side about this. :lol:

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Re: Who loves who more?? Max or Liz?? and why do you think so??

Postby Coccy » Wed Sep 03, 2008 6:17 am

Cocogurl wrote:I kinda have to agree with Sin on this one. I'm always hearing about much Liz hurt MAX or how she betrayed MAX. But it feels like no one's even bothering to understand the things that Liz went through and still has to go through because of her love for Max. Max wasn't the only willing to sacrifice his life for the one he loved. I seemed to remember the time when Liz was going to help break into the White Room to save Max, which could've gotten her killed. Or when she was willing to jump off a bridge with Max, which could've also gotten her killed. She was also willing to rob a convenience store with him, which if she didn't get killed accidentally, she would've been in prison for most of her young life.


it seems to me that no one try to understand Max's POV instead.
again, we keep on taking for granted that he knew the things that Liz, Maria and us knew but it wasn't like that.
I understand that it isn't easy for the human mind because we *saw* what was really happening. but Max didn't. we can't analyze his pov based on what he didn't know and not only didn't know but he believed that the truth was the opposite of what we knew it was.

the core point of what i'm saying (to the wind) is that they both loved each other in the same intensity and just because they were human and they did their own mistakes it doesn't delete their love for each other and what they BOTH always did for each other.
My point is that BOTH Max and Liz were responsible for what happened to them.


And I understand Max's POV too. In his eyes the woman he loved slept with another guy and moved on, but what pisses me off about that is that he lost complete and total faith in her because of that.



i beg to differ
i've already posted the proofs from the canon that he didn't lose faith in her just because she slept with Kyle. he was a friend for her, he tried. he believed in her even when he was angry with her. but there're some limits even for Max
also, why it's ok for Liz to be angry about Max sleeping with Tess but then Max had to forgive her when she slept with Kyle? why?
i know that she didn't but for Max she did and she confirmed it over and over not to mention what he saw. it's a miracle that he could be still a friend for her.


It's like every good thing she ever did for Max, Michael and Isabel just didn't matter because of this one thing.


again, i fail to understand where you took this idea since canon didn't provide me a real clue about it.
even when he was angry about what happened with Kyle it was about their relationship and how much he loved her, not about Michael and Isabel and the group.

also, you're doing toward Max what you accuse Max of doing toward Liz :lol:


But Liz never stopped believing in Max or supporting him. Not for one second.



are you sure?
because sorry me but in Cry your name they BOTH stopped to have faith in each other.
and i don't need to remind you what Liz told Max in heart of mine.
so, sorry but she wasn't always supportive and she did lose her faith too.
and it was perfectly normal.
i'm not the one here who is creating a problem about their humanity


It was her faith and love for Max that made her do what she did in EOTW. She believed that FMax had to have good reason to come back in time and do what he did, that he was truly doing what was best for them. And I believe that you would have to love someone A LOT to just sacrifice your entire life's happiness. But Max didn't have enough to believe that MAYBE Liz was right about Alex. He should've put his own personal feelings aside for Alex at least. Alex was always there for the pod squad even when he didn't know the truth about them yet.


this is irrational and not realistic for me.
again, Max didn't know that she was a heroine and she never tried to give him clues about it. the contrary.
if even her best friend Maria who knew the truth didn't believe in her how Max could
and again, he's not perfect or omnipotent
he does have the right to have his own personal crisis. in that moment he couldn't and he didn't want to believe in her theory because he would feel responsible then. just like Liz told him
he couldn't put his own personal feelings aside. not always. he did it already for too much time. it was too late and too bad for him. again we're talking about teenagers and even adult people aren't robots always perfect
Liz couldn't put her feelings aside too. again, it's not that her behavior and choice of words helped him and the situation
they were both two ass. but unlike others they could understand and admit it, later.



Sin wrote:It's not about Max waiting for Liz forever. Or perhaps it is.


see....
this is irrational. why he should await for her forever? again, he didn't know what we knew. can we understand it?
i don't think that it's really so hard. not into a world where not all of us can read people's minds.


My entire point is that ultimately for Liz no one compared to Max and Liz could never do what Max did.


never say never
Liz didn't find herself in the same situation.
i never was into Max's situation so i will never be able to say that i couldn't do his mistake.

Liz could not sleep with someone who wasn't Max. She just couldn't do it.


like i said before, into her situation she couldn't
but Max wasn't Liz and Liz wasn't Max

Liz knew that she and Max still loved each other she knew what she did and she knew that she didn't mean the things that she told him in teotw. but Max NO.
put Liz into the same situation and lets see what she would have done. otherwise this is totally pointless.



That's why Liz couldn't see anything besides Max for her in terms of a love relationship. Yes she dated. But Max wasn't replaced. He wasn't replaceable for her and Max was always more important to Liz then she was to Max.


it's not that Max replaced her either.
again, even Tess admitted that he always loved Liz and not her and she saw it into his mind everytime they were together

Let's just take a look at Departure. Max leaves her in danger with a homicidal alien hunting them in Roswell. She is defenseless and most likely would have died with that alien on the loose but his main priorites are Tess and the baby. Liz wasn't his priority and Liz wasn't his priority in Control either. In Control he was willing to jump on a space ship and never see her ever again. He ignored her calls and he didn't even tell her that he was leaving earth. Liz wasn't a priority to him until after he lost her. But for Liz Max was alaways a priority to her. She may have pushed him away after Alex's death but he was still a priority to her.


after Alex's death Max wasn't a priority for Liz and she pretty proved it with her words and actions. and this is normal
Max and Liz are not omnipotent. i find funny that you keep on notice only Max's part into those episode and you totally avoid what she did and said too.
it was both their fault. and they realized it. who i'm to contradict them?

again, he had no choice in departure (and in control too for me)
he couldn't do both. he tried but he had no time and he had NO REASON to abandon Tess and the baby since Tess loved him and his son was innocent.
then when he discovered her true colors he could have stayed with her however but he didn't. he was free from the duty toward *her* and he started to work for his son only getting rid of the mother at the first occasion (and it was his right since she wanted to kill him).
it's also true that Max wasn't always searching for his son.(and again this was his duty! he had to find him at any cost. the baby is innocent, we can't kill him just because of his mother)

Liz was Max's priority especially when she was in danger because it's when people are in danger that you can really show it. also, in control he realized his mistake and he made a promise that he kept.
in "crash" he wasn't even interested about the crash and he told her that there was not a chance in hell that he could jump into a spaceship if there was one.
He basically didn't want to lose her and for her, at one point, he gave up about searching his son. Is this right? not for me. but he did. for her. because he understood how she was feeling. and it was not that Liz asked him, the contrary. i don't believe that she wanted him to make a choice between her and his son. still, at one point, it seems to me that he did and it wasn't his son. even after an alien crash that surely enough was something concrete to use in order to find his baby. still, he didn't want. he entered in the base just because with Michael he wanted to help that man, then he didn't even care about the alien thing Michael found. even Michael was surprised by his behavior.

i always use the example of chant down babylon
when they were falling to the ground they both had flashes of their life.
Liz saw all her beloved ones, her family, friends and Max.
Max on the other hand had flashes only about it. that scene symbolized that his whole life was Liz's only.
sure enough it didn't mean that he didn't love Michael, Isabel, his parents and his son too. still she was the only thing that he remembered and only the memories about her and her only kept his soul alive. Clayton saw Liz only too. and again, when Nicolas mindraped his mind the first image he got was Liz and only after her Michael and Isabel


Max was only able to fully be with Liz after all of the "other" things were dealt with. Liz didn't mean enough to him ultimately.



we totally watched another show. :shock:

it's funny that many anti-Max (especially polars, guess why :lol: ) call him abusive and possessive :lol:
Max had hopes for him and Liz for the whole year after she broke his heart and slept with Kyle but surely he couldn't and he never tried to force her to be with him. but no matter what Max did or how we look at what he did, it seems that he's always the bad one :lol:

he wanted to be with Liz and tried to be with Liz? --> abusive possessive ossessive
he wanted to be with Liz and tried to be with Liz but then gave up when it was obvious for him that she really didn't want to be with him anymore? --> he doesn't love her enough. he should have forced her!! damn him. he could have opened her brain in order to see the heroine she was!

paradox is that Max forgave Liz about sleeping with Kyle even more than how much Liz forgave him about sleeping with Tess. or maybe they both did it equally when the time was right.





Tess came very close to taking Max away from Liz forever and she didn't even have to try very hard.


are you kidding me? :lol:
she had to kiss his ass for a whole year after Liz was out of the picture, even after Liz "betrayed him" she couldn't get him like she wanted. she had to mindwarp him manipulating him both in the human and alien way and she got his body (but not his heart and she herself admitted it not only once ) only when he was into a bad state.
too bad that she realized that Max was just a boy when it was too late :lol:

Max could have left in departure and never seen Liz ever again and he would have done it without looking back.


whoa!! lets delete the scene from departure where he cried outside the crashdown. lets delete what Tess saw and said.
again, we watched another show. this is the only believable explanation because my version included other scenes that it seems that weren't included into ours



I don't think Liz could have done that. Liz always loved him, she had faith in him. I think her love was greater by vast amounts.


too bad that actually she really did it in too late and too bad
she choose Alex over even her friendship with Max

but let me guess... Liz was justified when she did it while Max no. no matter if Max did it because she wasn't nice with him either and he had his own reasons too.


It's not about the rebound. It's the fact that Max intimately gave himself to Tess. While Liz couldn't. I think that shows that Liz couldn't see herself with anyone but Max. While Max was willing to do that with Tess.


because he was right. it was his right. again, don't forget that Max didn't know what *you* knew. because for Max everything was very very different
again, Liz could. into her situation she could because she knew the truth. Max knew another truth
we know what would have happened if FMax and Liz didn't try to change the future.


I love Max.


oooooook :lol: :lol: :lol:
sorry but this discussion is very anti dreamer for me.

it doesn't seem to me that all the people are dreamers because they love both of them, if i can be honest
if there is something that i hate about rebels is that they love the couple just because they worship Tess and they don't give a single damn about Max's feelings. He's like this toy that their fav character wanted so she must get him at any cost.
the bad thing is that some dreamers are like that too. Liz's worshipers. sometimes it seems to me that it's more a war between Liz and Tess and who could get this toy in the middle.


I am not trying to overlook all that Max did for Liz by any means. But I do have a hard time swallowing the fact that Max was going to leave Liz on earth with a homicidal alien that was attacking their group.


it seems to me that you're doing what cocogurl accused Max of doing (and you agreed with her)

"It's like every good thing she ever did for Max, Michael and Isabel just didn't matter because of this one thing."

only one mistake delete everything he always did before and after it. everything he always did just didn't matter anymore because of this one thing.
i don't share this opinion. however you should both apply it to Liz too and the other characters.


Max may have sacrificed for her but Liz did to. Liz sacrificed her entire life for him. She sacrificed her dreams of Harvard, she sacrificed her relationship with her family, her high school career, her future, her happiness, and her very life. Yes. Max did save her life. But Liz gave him her's and then saved his life as well. Liz supported him and she loved him unconditionally. She was true. There was no one else for her. Not Kyle, not Sean. No one
.

no one said the contrary. :roll: sure not me
i'm not the one here who is putting Liz against Max and viceversa.
i'm just saying that they both did it. into different ways. into different times. and it's undeniable for me.



It's not. Irrelevant that is. Liz would do the very same for him.


and... i missed something here.
because Max not only could do it but he really did it in the canon and more than once. but you delete it.

I just wanted to get the point across that if Liz had alien powers she would have saved his life and sacrificed her life for him just as well. :lol:


i still don't get the point. since for you she loved him more than he loved her even if they proved to do everything for each other (but for you it seemed that only Liz did everything for him while the canon provided valid proofs of the contrary since the pilot and the very core point of the show).

I am not using it against him. I am just showing what Liz did for Max. Showing her actions and her love for him. Showing why I believe that she loved him completely.


you're putting (and not just you) Liz against Max taking in consideration only her POV in the story. what you wrote is the proof of it. at least for me. it's how i perceived it.
i showed you many of Max actions and his love for her but it seems that they're nothing for you even when into his examples they're not only things that he could do (so an assumption) but he REALLY did them in the show.
so, correct me if i'm wrong.
they both did everything for each other and Max did even more since he basically killed himself for her. But Liz loved Max more just because when she wasn't into Max situation and bad state she didn't sleep with someone who was manipulating her after Max broke her heart and lied and manipulated to him ?
basically Liz loved Max more because no matter what he always did too, she didn't try to save her son. ops.. she had no one. so she couldn't know how it felt. but for you (again, correct me if i'm wrong) in the same situation Liz would have abandoned her dying son for Max no matter if he did hurt her since a year (for reasons she didn't know and she couldn't know)
and then Liz would be a good person. a mother abandoned her son and she's good.
ok.

I was showing where his priorities were. It was Tess and Baby. It didn't matter that Liz was in very real danger with an alien hunter on the loose willing to kill her. He had to go to Antar. I didn't see much of his love there. Max wasn't thinking about Liz. He was thinking about Tess and his son. They were more important then her.
...
It's not about abandoning them. I am just trying to show that they were more important to him then Liz was. Which wasn't the case for Liz and her feelings for Max.


but OMG how it could be different? he was not omnipotent, what he was supposed to do? this is not about his love for Liz this is about what was not humanly possible! :shock:
your way to look at what happened is totally unreasonable for me.
he had to go. he had no other choice. his love for Liz wasn't the point because no matter what he had no choice and yes, at the moment they were, obviously, more important, they were a priority. a duty too strong. I would have hated him if he would have abandoned them for... for what?

also, in the episode the first thing Max tried to do was to kill Leanne who was the supposed killer of Alex. so, don't say that he didn't care because he tried to do both things but it wasn't his fault if Leanne wasn't Alex's killer and the granlith worked into a way that didn't give him the time to do both things.

again, i fail to understand why Max should be this omnipotent superhero who can do everything. this is not about who he loved or not loved. this is not about how much Liz was important for him because, again, he proved into other occasions that she was everything and the top of his priorities. but just like Max couldn't be the top of her priorities when it wasn't humanly possible for her (and think about changes too) the same goes for Max. sometimes you just don't have a choice.




I'm showing the dynamic difference between them both at that time.


there's no difference for me because Max and Liz didn't live the same identical situations, in the first place
so i can't compare one behavior with the other one. the dynamic difference must be different because the situations they lived were different.
i only compare them because they both were on rebounds and they both tried to survive since they couldn't be with each other. they both were attracted to other people. they both had another option but in their hearts they always chose each other.


I can't see Liz walking away from Max when he needed her. It wasn't even possiable for her. Max walked away from Liz when she needed him. That was a reality.


are you really sure?
because in destiny, if i remember well, Liz walked away from Max when he needed her the most. after they tortured him like an animal and she even saw it into his mind, she walked away from him. and when she returned in roswell she didn't even call him.
you will say that she had her reasons but sorry every character had their reasons. all of them. even Tess to a degree.

again, you should apply the same judgment on all the characters not just one.



What did Max provide when he was trying to tell Liz that it wasn't his fault he shoved his tounge down Tess' throat?


something not more believable (or maybe more believable for me) than two tickets and a pic with Alex's figure removed. and it's not that everyone supported Liz.
again, you knew the truth because the show did let you know. but for the individual characters without this power it was very different



Max is not a robot, he's not perfect. nor it's Liz.


It just shows that Max wasn't there for Liz when she needed him. Where as Liz always supported him and didn't need a bag full of evidence to stand by him. Even when Max thought that he could hear his son threw the autistic boy in the christmas episode Liz still stood by him despite all evidence to the contray.


i've already replied to this, i guess


I take Liz's side during Alex's death because she lost more. She was his friend and she loved him and she brought him into the alien world so I feel more for her loss then for Max's because Max was barely his friend to begin with. Liz was much closer to Alex then Max was and it also doesn't help that he was attacking two of the closest people Alex had ties with after his death Isabel and Liz. SO maybe I am being insensitive to his feelings. But then again he was insenstive to both Isabel and Liz's feelings as well.


because Liz and Isabel weren't insensitive as well.
Liz was a saint, an angel. she was never OOC :roll: put sarcasm here.

i tend to take more Max's side because at least Liz knew the truth and she was making her choices about their relationship with more power while this is a luxury that Max never had even if it was his right and his life too. if he had know the truth things could have been totally different and we know it.
i will never like that fact that Liz didn't tell him the truth especially in that moment. just like i will never like that Max slept with Tess and i will never like the way he acted during those episodes just like i will never like the way Liz acted too. but looking at the outcome i can see that hey payed their mistakes, that after all it wasn't really and totally their fault and that, at least, they were able to take the responsibility of their actions and find their way back to each other. to forgive each other.




Liz was a side note until she started sparkling with alien energy and chewed him out for the hurt he caused her. Prior to that she was always secondary to Max finding his son or going to Antar.


so i dreamed all the other scenes and episodes like busted, michael the guys and the.., significant others, a tale of two parties, the end of samuel rising, the end of control when he traveled all night just in order to get to her as soon as possible.. it's not that season 3 is so big before changes-panacea-chant down babylon arc not to mention that the beginning was almost about Isabel's wedding only. almost.

compared to other boyfriends without his problems it seems to me that he tried his best but maybe i love this couple for the wrong reason because maybe for other people they must be together all the time like glue.
for some he wasn't even good as a father because he should have used his time in order to save the baby instead of surprising Liz realizing her little dream or taking her to ice skating like she wanted or comforted her about her father.

it's funny because i don't know what fans wanted from Max
for some he's cheesy and too possessive toward Liz because he's always with her. but then for some he's even the contrary :lol:
i'm curious to know how other fictional boyfriends are judged. because in the same show we have Michael's example and it's not that Michael had Max's problems that could stop him to give attentions to his girl.





CDB is a nice episode. There are a whole bunch of nice Liz/Max episodes. But ultimately they're in a vaccum and they only happen when all of the "other things" in their relationship (i.e. Max's priorities) are dealt with.


dealt with? it didn't seem to me before that episode.
and, again, what you wanted more from him (and only him!) is a mystery for me.



It's not a question of being justified. It's that his actions were completely wrong and he had no right to act that way and him acting that way was not understandable or sympathetic.


again, Liz was not an angel either but i won't delete everything she always did just because she did her own mistakes and she was just human like us. maybe because i notice her own mistakes too, in the first place.

The point is that Max shared something with Tess that Liz could not.


again, Liz wasn't exactly into Max's situation
she almost did the same mistake into another situation

He gave Tess a piece of himself and he shared that part of him with her.


again, he's not a toy that the girls had to win.
and again, he gave her his body but not his heart and what he gave to Liz. something that for me is way more intimate and powerful.

the baby was a mistake, something not wanted or programmed.

now it's not that Max won't be able to have sex anymore :lol: Liz received that part of himself too but it's ot that they needed it IMO
the physical act was a plus but it wasn't the ultimate proof of their love for each other
Not only did he sleep with her but he created something with her and connected with her in the most complete act of sharing something with another person.


it's not that he thought ok lets have a baby
he basically 'sold' his body when he was into bad state and Tess was the only one there for him
his heart wasn't into and even Tess knew it and admitted it (if the day after wasn't enough to understand it however)

That's something that Liz could never do.


again, Liz never lived what Max lived so we can't know for sure what she would have done into his place
and even if her personality, into the exact situation, would be stronger than Max it doesn't automatically mean that she loves him more than Max. it just means that she's stronger as an individual person while Max isn't or he's stronger into other situations.

we can't rationalize everything so much.



I don't think it was. Liz simply couldn't see herself with anyone but Max. That's my opinon on it. That's why I think she loves him more then he loves her among the various other things I've stated.


even if this is true (and i don't believe that it's true because, again, we can't compare the two different situations they found their self into, Liz didn't live exactly what Max lived) it doesn't mean that one loved the other one more.
it could mean, for me, that for one sex is more important than the other. or maybe sex was unimportant into a certain moment for one while it was important into another moment for the other one.
in order to "quantify" love (such a ugly phrase) i need something more than their way to handle hormones into a certain situation where they're very vulnerable.
again, it's not that Max slept with Tess in teotw or other times where he was happy or when he was with Liz or he knew that she loved him and wanted to be with him. (while Liz knew, even in the example from departure where she almost slept with Sean, that Max still loved her and he was with Tess just because/mostly of what she herself created in that year and the lie she told him) it happened into a specific time
and even the writers said that Max wasn't himself

you avoided the part of my reply where i said that fans justify Michael's actions in season 3 when he was the king using the "alien side influence" card but then when it's about Max no one use it even if the writers created this "excuse" for Max and not for the others. not to mention that you don't need just an alien influence in order to be not yourself. you can temporary be not your self even just for human reasons (that Max lived too) it figures when you materially have like another "person" inside you that can take control

also, look at what Tess did to Alex. we will never know how far away her manipulations (with her powers too) went when it's about Max. above all, i will never believe that the supposed memories he got from her were real.


No. Liz couldn't move on from Max. Max found it easier to sleep with Tess, create a child with her and then leave earth forever with Liz in danger, while Liz couldn't even go to third base with Sean.


again, Liz didn't live what Max lived. Max didn't know what Liz knew. Sean wasn't Tess. and Liz wasn't the clone/reincarnation of another person with confusing memories about another world.
and again, Liz wasn't indifferent to Sean. she kissed and dated him even before Max kissed Tess. she used him. Max had a whole year if he wanted to be with Tess. Sean was there since... a month? and surely he wasn't her past life husband whom she was destined to be with in order to save her planet.
and Liz was the one who ended things between them. not Max. no matter if she didn't want and she was forced to do it (but not in destiny), she still did it and into Max's situation it was perfectly normal that after a year he finally tried to give her (tess) a chance since she loved him while Liz didn't.(for him, and who can blame him.
Liz could await Max if she wanted because she knew the truth and she knew what she was really doing. while Max had nothing to hope anymore for them because she kept on pushing him away and from his pov, for what she told him and what he saw, Liz didn't want him anymore and she even wanted him to move on with Tess. it's not that she showed to be so hurt by it. she surely was inside her but what she told him was very different.

IMO Liz acted naively and this was her big mistake in season 2. it was like if at one point she totally forgot about FMax and what she made Max believe about her feelings. she took for granted that he knew. she irrationally resented him because he couldn't know what she couldn't tell him
i understand her. but at the same time this doesn't change the fact that she should have told him the whole truth if she really wanted to give their relationship another chance. she couldn't be with him and without him at the same time. and i believe that Liz realized it.
i never believed that she blamed Max for everything. the fans do it but not Liz.





I agree with this. This is why I believe Liz was incapable of moving on. She never wanted a physical or emotional relationship with anyone else but Max. While Max wanted to have all of that with another woman. Liz only wanted Max. Where as Max wanted to move on. Liz couldn't. Max could.


into that specific situation he found himself into he obviously could while Liz who was into another situation couldn't.
both Liz and Max wanted to move on. it didn't seem to me that Liz was indifferent to Sean.
but wanting to move on because you can't be with the one you really love doesn't automatically mean that you stopped to love the person you really love.
it's just that sometimes you can't get what you want. people need to survive into a way or another. it isn't fair but life is never fair.
i don't fault Max for trying to love a woman who was forced on him from the start and who was there with him when he needed a friend while Liz broke his heart and put away even their friendship.
M&L were lucky enough because they got the chance to find each other again and to be happy but it's a happy end very deserved because not all the people could be able to do it. if they didn't love each other so much they couldn't have survived what happened to them.



anyway i'm surprised that the mods didn't close this thread yet
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"You're what would bring me back.
Even if my molecules were spread out from here to whatever galaxy my home planet is in,
that wouldn't stop me. All my molecules would be like little homing pigeons.
They'd all zoom to you, and then I'd re-form." - Max Evans; Roswell High - The Watcher
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