Who loves who more?? Max or Liz?? and why do you think so??

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Re: Who loves who more?? Max or Liz?? and why do you think so??

Postby Zanity » Sat Sep 06, 2008 10:24 am

Ok I didn't go back and read this thread from the beginning but I have been following it since it went active again recently and I thought I'd put in my two cents.

There is a fundamental flaw with the question because love is an emotion like all other emotions. It grows stronger and ebbs away over time base on the experiences in your life.

Question to any married person out there: Do you love your spouse more today than the day you met them? Do you love them more today than the day you proposed or were proposed to as the case may be? Do you love them more now than the day you married them? If the answer isn't yes to all of these then perhaps you should try to find time to begin courting each other again.

As for Max and Liz....

At the time of the shooting Max loved Liz more, but Liz's love began growing after Max reversed the connection. At the end of Destiny I'd say Max still loved Liz more. During Season 2 its hard to say who loved whom more. It is obvious they both loved each other but based on their actions I can't tell, it would require me to have the ability to connect to both of them and compare the feelings. From Busted through Control I'd say Liz loved Max more. After that it gets sketchy again until after Chant Down Babylon where I think there love for each other sort of evens out.... and I like to think that after the wedding night it sort of blended together via their connection.

But the point of the matter is there can be no simple definitive answer to this question. I've seen a lot of argument over what the events of season 2 meant to there love and while I'm not going to give a huge argument over it I think I am going to post a sneak preview snip from a fic that I haven't posted yet.... this is a re-write from a conversation in Busted.... the way it should have taken place:

"Liz, I just want to put everything that happened behind us."

Liz retorted, "Yeah, you know what? I would, too, if I had impregnated an alien killer who murdered one of our best friends and then left the planet with my unborn child."

Max looked up with pain in his eyes, "So you're still holding on to that?"

Liz softened a little, "It's hard not to, Max. See, you slept with Tess, and then you got her pregnant. I don't know how to just move past that. You hurt me, you know?"

Max's face once again wrenched in pain, "And you didn't hurt me? I told you I needed you. I told you you're what kept me alive and you ran from me. When you came back I fought for you until you made it clear that I wasn't what you wanted any more. For nearly a year Liz you could have had me at the snap of your fingers. Three months of it you spent in Florida. Then I was trying to win you back all you had to do was accept."

"Even after that I can think of any number of four word sentences that would have fixed everything. Let's try again Max. I still love you. I want you back. If I had heard any of these I would have been yours in a heart beat."

"But you kept telling me I belonged to Tess. When you agreed to go to prom with me I thought maybe that could be the start of us getting back together, but then you gave me that suffocating speech. Do you have any idea how much that hurt?" Liz could see the beginnings of tears in Max's eyes.

"Then Alex dies, you practically blame me. Isabel wanted to leave; I had to blackmail her to stay. Michael wasn't speaking to me. You renounced even our friendship in favor of your crusade to find Alex's killer. Everyone who knows me and cared about me was abandoning me… Do you know I was seriously contemplating suicide that night before Tess showed up?" Now the tears were openly streaming down Max's face.

"So Tess shows up, promises me that she won't abandon me, and offers me a chance to feel something other than pain for a while; and I took it. I will regret that every day of my life. It's the biggest mistake I have ever made. Can we please move past it?"

Liz had tears in her own eyes as she argued back, "It's not that simple."

Max sighed, "Liz, I'm here. I'm not going anywhere. Isabel, Michael, and I, we've lost our only way home. There's no way back. You're the only-- or me to-- you're my only reason. I want to be with you."

Liz questioned, "Tess is pregnant with your child. What about your son?"

Again Max sighed, "There's nothing I can do about that. He's gonna be born in a... in another world, a world that I have nothing to do with. I've accepted it. Liz, you've paid a lot to know me. You've been hurt and you've been put in danger. Now I want to make that up to you. I want to make your dreams come true. Will you let me do that?"



Liz and Max both hurt each other that season... they both could have handled it better... but Liz was 16-17 and Max was 11 in a 17 year old's body. They weren't perfect, but they did forgive. What they felt for each other endured the hardest of hardships and trials and came out stronger on the other side. At times given the situations one of them held a stronger love than the other but there were other time when the reverse was true. But all in all their love survived.

1 Corinthians 13:4-7 Love is patient, love is kind, and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

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Re: Who loves who more?? Max or Liz?? and why do you think so??

Postby Sin » Sat Sep 06, 2008 11:46 am

again, just because her motivations were right and she was doing what she believed that it was the right thing it doesn't justify her actions toward Max.

In fact, i don't remember a single time in season 3 where he told her something about FMax and how much she did hurt him in the past year.


he totally took all the responsibility


How could he not. He made his own choices. He couldn't blame Liz for his choice to sleep with Tess and again he was the one who was unwilling to see the alien killer route. Those choices that he made led to disasterous roads. That was his fault. His desicion and his choice.

if he wanted he had all the right to be still angry.


Why? She did all of those things for him and to save him. She did all that she could to save him and do the right thing for him. He can't blame Liz for something that happended that was completely out of her control. Especially with the information that was given to her. You can't blame Liz for doing what was asked for her and protecting the groups interests. Also again it was Max choice to act the way he did in ITBAITL and it was his choice to isolate himself and make himself vulnerable when he felt that he could turn to no one.

using your logic then if the writers would have added that Tess did what she did for a specific purpose in order to save someone then even someone like her could be justified for killing Alex and manipulating Max&Co.


You are misinterpretting my point. Liz always had good intentions and good motivations for all the things she did. You can't compare her motivations and actions and driving emotions behind what she did to Tess' who was a cold blooded killer and wanted to kill Alex and then kill her four square family and betray her "husband". There is no justification for that further more there is not even a good motivation for her actions to begin with. There is a difference. It's like comparing self defense to cold blooded killing.

using your logic then Max was justified for his behavior with Isabel or Liz because he wanted to protect them


Perhaps the motivation may have been in the right place. However the actions and his threats passed a very crucial important line in my opinon. I don't think one could get over that. It showed how much Max didn't respect Isabel enough as a person and also showed how heartless he was to destroy her entire life and reputation just because she didn't agree with his desicion and she wanted to have a normal life that didnt' include Roswell.
i'm not saying that Liz was wrong. I'm just showing you that everything is not black or white and sometimes you can do something very wrong with the best intentions.


I don't think what Liz did was wrong. In my opinon I think she would have been wrong if she was selfish and did continue to persue Max even knowing that the world would end if they were together and the pain that their union would cause if they were together. I think that would have been wrong and selfish.

correct me if i'm wrong. so for you Max didn't love Liz enough because he slept with Tess even if he still loved Liz enough


I think he betrayed his love for Liz when he slept with Tess. I think he betrayed his feelings for Liz when he slept with Tess. I think he betrayed himself and everything they ever meant to one another when he slept with Tess. Because ultimately Max was still in love with Liz when he slept with Tess.

until her phrase in cry your name he supported her too.



That was the most important time that she needed him.
otherwise i dreamed episodes like "leaving normal"


Oh yes. That's right. I nearly forgot about LN. But I still think my point has been made. Liz was always there for him. Even if it was just to talk, support or whatever but the one time where she needed him the most he couldn't support her.
i don't understand why he had to be the only one.


Because she was the one who lost the most. She was the one who was lost in her grief for her best friend of six years. She was the one who needed him more. The one time where she needed his support he left her.

well, it seems to me that she came back after Max died and she finally realized that she couldn't be without him no matter what and who


She was in a completely different place then she was in Ch-Ch-Changes. The time away from everything did her major good.
she wasn't there after what happened in the aftermath of what happened to him.


Again it's not as if Max was saying that he needed her or begging her to stay with him. From her point of view she was an interloper. She didn't belong as Nasedo said. Liz was breaking apart the four square and hurting Max and his mission something he had to do. It's not like she left him on the floor with a gun shot wound, she left him in the hands of the people who were meant to take care of him and be loyal to him and to help him. Tess, Michael, their protector and Isabel. It's not as if she just left him alone to die in the desert. She let him go because it was best for him.

Max wasn't the real problem


At that point in time he was. She couldn't control herself around him and she was in the most pain when he was with her. He couldn't even touch her or be around her because it hurt her too much to be around him at the time of her power manifestiation. He was hurting her and she was in pain because of him. Heck even in Paneca she couldn't even stand to hear his voice without losing control and melting the phone she was using.
otherwise she couldn't return back to home with him after he died and came back.


Again she had a completely different out look at the end of CDB, and she also healed from the pain that she was in in Changes. If she had not had that time away from Roswell we don't know how bad it could have gotten.
and it's not that Max stopped to love her, in the first place. but he couldn't always *understand* a Liz that he didn't know, in the first place.


Max still loved her yet he didn't feel enough for her to help her in her hour of need. I think that's my ending point.

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Re: Who loves who more?? Max or Liz?? and why do you think so??

Postby Coccy » Sun Sep 07, 2008 3:41 am

Zanity wrote:Ok I didn't go back and read this thread from the beginning but I have been following it since it went active again recently and I thought I'd put in my two cents.

There is a fundamental flaw with the question because love is an emotion like all other emotions. It grows stronger and ebbs away over time base on the experiences in your life.

Question to any married person out there: Do you love your spouse more today than the day you met them? Do you love them more today than the day you proposed or were proposed to as the case may be? Do you love them more now than the day you married them? If the answer isn't yes to all of these then perhaps you should try to find time to begin courting each other again.

As for Max and Liz....

At the time of the shooting Max loved Liz more, but Liz's love began growing after Max reversed the connection. At the end of Destiny I'd say Max still loved Liz more. During Season 2 its hard to say who loved whom more. It is obvious they both loved each other but based on their actions I can't tell, it would require me to have the ability to connect to both of them and compare the feelings. From Busted through Control I'd say Liz loved Max more. After that it gets sketchy again until after Chant Down Babylon where I think there love for each other sort of evens out.... and I like to think that after the wedding night it sort of blended together via their connection.

But the point of the matter is there can be no simple definitive answer to this question. I've seen a lot of argument over what the events of season 2 meant to there love and while I'm not going to give a huge argument over it I think I am going to post a sneak preview snip from a fic that I haven't posted yet.... this is a re-write from a conversation in Busted.... the way it should have taken place:

"Liz, I just want to put everything that happened behind us."

Liz retorted, "Yeah, you know what? I would, too, if I had impregnated an alien killer who murdered one of our best friends and then left the planet with my unborn child."

Max looked up with pain in his eyes, "So you're still holding on to that?"

Liz softened a little, "It's hard not to, Max. See, you slept with Tess, and then you got her pregnant. I don't know how to just move past that. You hurt me, you know?"

Max's face once again wrenched in pain, "And you didn't hurt me? I told you I needed you. I told you you're what kept me alive and you ran from me. When you came back I fought for you until you made it clear that I wasn't what you wanted any more. For nearly a year Liz you could have had me at the snap of your fingers. Three months of it you spent in Florida. Then I was trying to win you back all you had to do was accept."

"Even after that I can think of any number of four word sentences that would have fixed everything. Let's try again Max. I still love you. I want you back. If I had heard any of these I would have been yours in a heart beat."

"But you kept telling me I belonged to Tess. When you agreed to go to prom with me I thought maybe that could be the start of us getting back together, but then you gave me that suffocating speech. Do you have any idea how much that hurt?" Liz could see the beginnings of tears in Max's eyes.

"Then Alex dies, you practically blame me. Isabel wanted to leave; I had to blackmail her to stay. Michael wasn't speaking to me. You renounced even our friendship in favor of your crusade to find Alex's killer. Everyone who knows me and cared about me was abandoning me… Do you know I was seriously contemplating suicide that night before Tess showed up?" Now the tears were openly streaming down Max's face.

"So Tess shows up, promises me that she won't abandon me, and offers me a chance to feel something other than pain for a while; and I took it. I will regret that every day of my life. It's the biggest mistake I have ever made. Can we please move past it?"

Liz had tears in her own eyes as she argued back, "It's not that simple."

Max sighed, "Liz, I'm here. I'm not going anywhere. Isabel, Michael, and I, we've lost our only way home. There's no way back. You're the only-- or me to-- you're my only reason. I want to be with you."

Liz questioned, "Tess is pregnant with your child. What about your son?"

Again Max sighed, "There's nothing I can do about that. He's gonna be born in a... in another world, a world that I have nothing to do with. I've accepted it. Liz, you've paid a lot to know me. You've been hurt and you've been put in danger. Now I want to make that up to you. I want to make your dreams come true. Will you let me do that?"



Liz and Max both hurt each other that season... they both could have handled it better... but Liz was 16-17 and Max was 11 in a 17 year old's body. They weren't perfect, but they did forgive. What they felt for each other endured the hardest of hardships and trials and came out stronger on the other side. At times given the situations one of them held a stronger love than the other but there were other time when the reverse was true. But all in all their love survived.

1 Corinthians 13:4-7 Love is patient, love is kind, and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.



you totally made the point!
i wish i was so concise too :lol:


Sin, again, this discussion is getting on nonewhere because for me it was both their fault while for you Liz was TOTALLY innocent and she did nothing wrong even if i showed you the part she played and her own mistakes. with these bases there's no discussion
you refuse to see everything but Liz's POV and Liz's pov only. only her actions are justified, only her feelings were important. Only Liz lived the worst year of her life. only Liz suffered. Only Liz had no choice.
again, i find everything contradictory because we can apply your theories against Liz and other characters too not just Max. if something is a problem when it's about Max it should be a problem when it's about Liz too.
and it's not that for me Max was all innocent and he did nothing wrong. if that was my point then this discussion would have been simpler :lol:


i will try to reply to some things but it seems to me that we repeat the same things over and over

Sin wrote:How could he not. He made his own choices. He couldn't blame Liz for his choice to sleep with Tess and again he was the one who was unwilling to see the alien killer route. Those choices that he made led to disasterous roads. That was his fault. His desicion and his choice.


Why? She did all of those things for him and to save him. She did all that she could to save him and do the right thing for him. He can't blame Liz for something that happended that was completely out of her control. Especially with the information that was given to her. You can't blame Liz for doing what was asked for her and protecting the groups interests. Also again it was Max choice to act the way he did in ITBAITL and it was his choice to isolate himself and make himself vulnerable when he felt that he could turn to no one.


i give up :lol:
or we watched another show or we don't see the same things and for you some things are normal and easy while for me they're not.

to sleep with Tess and what came from it was his choice and responsibility, no doubt.

but again, he wasn't the one who created that big lie in season 2 and destroyed their relationship even BEFORE that episode. talking about Liz and their relationship it wasn't his fault only.

Max had the right to know what the heck was happening and why Liz broke his heart. It was HIS life too not just hers.
you can't blame everything on Max like if he knew what Liz was really doing and he didn't care!
again, you knew NOT Max. this is the core fundamental point. this is the big flaw of the whole point of your POV IMO
you delete something that isn't and can't be a detail. you delete something that not only can't be deleted but it's what made the big difference







You are misinterpretting my point.


it's not misinterpretation. i'm just using the same logic on other examples too not just the ones we like and that are convenient for us.

Liz always had good intentions and good motivations for all the things she did.


so other characters.
like i said, many mistakes are made with the best intentions.

You can't compare her motivations and actions and driving emotions behind what she did to Tess' who was a cold blooded killer


i don't compare them. i'm just saying that right motivations doesn't automatically make your actions right too.
for me Liz's motivations were totally right but her actions toward Max for the most part of season 2 were wrong i won't delete Max's feelings and pain caused by her actions and words just because her very hidden motivations that he knew nothing about were right.
it's not that Max's pain magically vanished just for that.


Perhaps the motivation may have been in the right place. However the actions and his threats passed a very crucial important line in my opinon.


see Max's example is even more comparable to Liz's.
again, Liz did hurt Max. she manipulated Max, she broke his heart over and over. no matter what her reasons were, she still did it!
for you she didn't hurt him a lot. for you she didn't affect him. i'm sorry but for me she did. she completely did.
she didn't want, she loved him. her reasons were right. but she still did.



I don't think what Liz did was wrong.


this is the problem and why we disagree.
and, again, i never said that Liz was selfish or that her reasons were wrong. the contrary. that's not the point

i still laugh when many fans call her like that (especially fans of Tess who was the queen of selfish self centered people). for me it's such an absurdity and hypocrisy that i don't understand if they're blind or just very very very biased and hypocritical.


I think he betrayed his love for Liz when he slept with Tess. I think he betrayed his feelings for Liz when he slept with Tess. I think he betrayed himself and everything they ever meant to one another when he slept with Tess. Because ultimately Max was still in love with Liz when he slept with Tess.


but he still loved her no? he still loved her enough no matter what happened.
sorry but i find the logic a bit contradictory :lol:
i understand what you mean but it's a never ending circle where he can't be both.
it's like if you're criticizing him accusing him of something but what you use in order to criticize him if also the proof that what you're saying is wrong.
again, he didn't love her enough because he slept with Tess when he still loved her enough :lol: it doesn't make sense. it's what you're saying or maybe it's me. :|

IMO your logic could work better (or at least i could understand it more) if Max stopped to love Liz after he slept with Tess or he stopped to love Liz and then slept with Tess. that way we could say that he didn't love her enough.
But in the canon show Max slept with Tess when he was still deeply in love with Liz and even Tess knew it.

paradox is that what happened proved even more how much he loved Liz because no matter what and who he still loved only her and even Tess knew it and she couldn't change it even with her mindwarps and manipulations.



Oh yes. That's right. I nearly forgot about LN. But I still think my point has been made. Liz was always there for him. Even if it was just to talk, support or whatever but the one time where she needed him the most he couldn't support her.


so was Max. he was always there. but the only time he really needed her she couldn't support him either.


Because she was the one who lost the most.


and i beg to differ.
you totally devalue everyone's feelings in order to make it seems that Liz was the only one with a serious problem to face.

Liz didn't even understand how Max was feeling. she didn't even understand what was happening to him.


Again it's not as if Max was saying that he needed her or begging her to stay with him.


and so what? :|
it's not that Liz was begging in cry your name and later, either.
this doesn't mean that she didn't need him.


At that point in time he was. She couldn't control herself around him and she was in the most pain when he was with her. He couldn't even touch her or be around her because it hurt her too much to be around him at the time of her power manifestiation. He was hurting her and she was in pain because of him. Heck even in Paneca she couldn't even stand to hear his voice without losing control and melting the phone she was using.

Again she had a completely different out look at the end of CDB, and she also healed from the pain that she was in in Changes. If she had not had that time away from Roswell we don't know how bad it could have gotten.


yes but, again, Max wasn't the real problem IMO. he was because Liz made him, psychologically.
her powers depended on how she felt and obviously Max made it worse because of how she felt, in that moment, toward him
it's the reason of why after he died and came back he wasn't the problem anymore. But Tess, for example, and her feelings toward her awakened her powers in the other episode.



Max still loved her yet he didn't feel enough for her to help her in her hour of need. I think that's my ending point.


and so Liz. Liz still loved Max yet she didn't feel enough for him (i don't really believe it. i'm just using your logic) to help him when he needed her and she didn't understand what he was living nor she even remembered that for Max she still was that Liz she herself created and he didn't know the truth and he couldn't understand her without it because he was still angry with *that* Liz and his behavior toward her could have been influenced by *that* Liz. just like her behavior toward him was influenced by that Max into those episodes.
Liz didn't understand, before departure, that from Max's POV she accused him of being responsible of Alex's death and this devastated him.
and again, Max helped her in the episode. he was there for her. the mess started when at Alex's home he just doubted her theory and she started to eat everyone starting from Isabel. Because Liz didn't hurt only Max with her words. before that horrible phrase she told Isabel that Alex got killed by Kivar because Kivar was her past life lover. i find pretty obvious that Max, then, started to be angry. how he was supposed to take her words? she was unreasonable and Isabel was his sister and she did lose the guy she was in love with. She didn't need Liz words, she was feeling guilty on her own for other reasons too.

i don't want to persecute Liz. and i hate that i have to make his kind of discussions. but OMG it seems that for you she did nothing wrong and she was a pure angel candid like snow! it seems that Max got angry for no reason at all!
it seems that only his words affected her while her words were pure love and friendship!


why this happened? because they both were into an emotional state that didn't give them the chance to use logic and to follow their heart. they felt to bad to be reasonable toward each other. it's human, no one can be different. But later they both understood the mistake and they both apologized, they both forgave each other. i also can't persecute them just for two things and delete everything they always did for each other before and after.

it's the fans that doesn't forgive Max or Liz not them. M&L got over it and they're happily living their life. they could laugh at us and how after almost 10 years we still keep record of things that they didn't keep record of. and they were the ones who lived it all, not us! lol
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Re: Who loves who more?? Max or Liz?? and why do you think so??

Postby Cocogurl » Sun Sep 07, 2008 5:23 am

I only disagree with really one thing, Coccy. You kinda make it seem that what Liz did to Max in EOTW gives him some sort of excuse for his behavior at the end of Season and I'm sorry, but it doesn't. I get that what Max went through there was hard and he had a reason to act the way he did in The Harvest, Wipeout, and MTD because Max didn't know the truth about what happened, and Liz, out of fear of what could happen, couldn't tell Max the truth.

But what Liz did to Max in EOTW and what Max did to Liz in ITLAITB are separate subjects and I have to treat them as such. In ITLAITB it shouldn't have been about how Liz manipulated Max or what FMax asked Liz to do, it should've been about Alex. I'm not saying that their feelings and pain were irrelevent, I'm just saying that they shouldn't have made it the most important, not when their was an alien killer out there on the loose. And if what happened EOTW did affect the way Max behaved towards Liz at the end of season 2, than I think you just proved that even though Max said it, he never REALLY forgave Liz for sleeping with Kyle and he was letting that effect his judgement.

And I believe that Liz's actions, wrong or right, were still more selfless than Max's throughout most of season 2, and even most of the series. And I'm not saying that because I'm not sympathetic with what Max was going through, it's just the choices that he ultimately made that tick me off. I can think of several times when Liz put the pod squad above everything else in her life. And yes, I can also think of the times that Max put Liz before himself. But they weren't as frequent. Throughout most of the series, Liz always had to take a backseat to Max's life.

And I honestly can't say that what Liz did in EOTW was wrong. And I'm kinda torn about that because this wasn't a simple situation. Yes, it wasn't just her life she was changing so maybe she should've told him, but also you have to take into consideration the possible consequences of her telling Max. What if she told him and that only made Max more determined to be with her again? Than FMax's entire mission would have been for nothing. And when you're talking about saving the entire world, you can't be too careful. And ITLAITB was a completely different situation and little bit more simpler. A person who buys concert tickets on the day that he's going to kill himself is enough of a reason to investigate. And while I don't agree with the way Liz handled it at the end of CYN, I do think what Alex's murder should've been a bigger priority to the gang than it was. Max was the only one who completely refused to believe that Alex's death might have been because of an alien and that has absolutely NOTHING to do with how Liz hurt him or what happened in EOTW, cause like you have mentioned several times before, he didn't know about FMax. So that I don't believe that that qualifies as a reasonable excuse.

But I'm still not going to argue over who loved who more, 'cause they both proved how much loved each other several times. Max proved it in the pilot and in 4AAAB Tess told Liz that everytime she was with Max, he was only thinking of Liz (So romantic!). Liz also proved it a bunch of times in the series. I think it does take a lot of love and strength to do what Liz did in EOTW.

Season 2 was just a very dramatic year for everyone involved.

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Re: Who loves who more?? Max or Liz?? and why do you think so??

Postby Coccy » Sun Sep 07, 2008 6:27 am

LOL it seems that you disagree with everything :lol:

(i'm just trying to light up the mood ^^")


Cocogurl wrote:I only disagree with really one thing, Coccy. You kinda make it seem that what Liz did to Max in EOTW gives him some sort of excuse for his behavior at the end of Season and I'm sorry, but it doesn't. I get that what Max went through there was hard and he had a reason to act the way he did in The Harvest, Wipeout, and MTD because Max didn't know the truth about what happened, and Liz, out of fear of what could happen, couldn't tell Max the truth.


not what i really wanted to do
what i said is that Max was influenced but that. i correct. Max's behavior toward Liz was and could be influenced by that.
then i also said that his personal crisis wasn't something that happened just because of what Liz did to him. it was so much more than this and i explained why i believe so.

But what Liz did to Max in EOTW and what Max did to Liz in ITLAITB are separate subjects and I have to treat them as such.


they're not so different for me. also, it wasn't just EOTW alone. it was a whole confusing year.
but the real point of what i said is that BOTH M&L weren't angels toward each other after Alex died and it's not that Max behaved that way toward a lovely sweet Liz.
i also said that, inevitably, he couldn't understand the real Liz if the one he knew in that point was another one. inevitably what he believed she did affected him and affected his idea of her in that specific moment.
If he had know the real Liz like us i seriously doubt that he would have acted that way because then he had no reason to be angry and to believe that she was OOC and was hurting him.

In ITLAITB it shouldn't have been about how Liz manipulated Max or what FMax asked Liz to do, it should've been about Alex.


it isn't. but EOTW created a Liz that affected Max and her behavior inevitably influenced his behavior toward her just like HIS behavior influenced hers toward him. that's my point.


And if what happened EOTW did affect the way Max behaved towards Liz at the end of season 2, than I think you just proved that even though Max said it, he never REALLY forgave Liz for sleeping with Kyle and he was letting that effect his judgement.


he did forgave her at one point but this doesn't mean that her behavior didn't still hurt him and it didn't have effects on his judgment especially when you add something new like the fact that from his pov she basically accused him of being responsible of Alex's death.
in season 3 Liz forgave Max about Tess but like we saw it still did hurt her. just because you forgive it doesn't automatically mean that the pain vanished.
And I believe that Liz's actions, wrong or right, were still more selfless than Max's throughout most of season 2


not my point

honestly this discussion started to be a bit OT long before this reply. we totally lose the core point.


I can also think of the times that Max put Liz before himself. But they weren't as frequent.


i have to disagree. for some people they're even more frequent especially since, ultimately, Max even killed himself for her and chose her over his son when he stopped to search and pretended that he didn't care.
he not only put her before himself. he put her before even his family and put in danger them too.

it always depends on where you look and what you want to see. for me they both provided enough to prove that who they loved was more important than theirself.


Max was the only one who completely refused to believe that Alex's death might have been because of an alien and that has absolutely NOTHING to do with how Liz hurt him or what happened in EOTW, cause like you have mentioned several times before, he didn't know about FMax. So that I don't believe that that qualifies as a reasonable excuse.


it has to do with it very much for me. i try to explain why.. again. because maybe i didn't make it more clear before.

the core problem was that Max didn't accept that an alien killed Alex.
why Max couldn't accept her theory about Alex's death?
answer: Because Max couldn't bear the thought that her best friend died for his fault. especially after he tried to save him and he failed.
and what made it worse? what created this illogical feeling? what made him feel like that?

link together these phrases:

The end of the world:
LIZ: Don't say anything, ok? Um, because I...I came in here with this whole speech, and once you start talking, my speech doesn't apply, and everything gets changed, and I just want to make sure that I say everything to you, so just don't say anything. Just don't say anything. Ok, I...I just re-read "Romeo and Juliet", and you know, the first thing that I realized is that isn't even the title. It's called "The Tragedy of Romeo and Juliet". They die. You know, she's this young girl, she...she's younger than me, and she dies. Look, I think the reason why people think that it's such a romantic play is they don't know what it's like to be put in that position...but when your life and...and other people's lives are...are put at risk, there isn't anything romantic about it.
Max, you can't stop what's happening to you. I mean, your life will always be dangerous, but my life, it doesn't have to be. My life is only in danger if I am with you. I...I want to be in love with boys...normal boys. I...I want to see my 21st birthday. I...I want to have a wedding day. I...I...I want to have children...and I want my children to be safe. You know, Max, if...if you truly love me, you'll let me go. I may love you, but I...I don't want to die for you.


we're a family:
MAX: Liz, you...should get to see Sweden. We...I...hold you back.
LIZ: No, Max.
MAX: Kyle was right.
LIZ: That's not true.
MAX: Everyone we touch gets hurt in some way or another. 5 years from now, I don't want you to open your eyes and realize that...that you missed out. You're part of the group. You always will be. But you need to be allowed to...to grow.

and then finally
cry your name:
LIZ: You don't want to think that Alex was killed by an alien because that would mean *you* are responsible.


is it so hard to see how EOTW CAN'T be irrelevant here????
this isn't even about loving Liz, believing in her or sleep with Tess. This is about a boy who felt responsible of something that wasn't his fault and the woman he loved made him feel like that too (and the tragic thing is that Liz didn't want to do it!). she awakened a fear that was there from the beginning. the fear that he was a monster.

this affected him, it made him unreasonable and he couldn't accept her theory about Alex, it was too much. it meant too much for him.
and it's not that someone told him that it wasn't his fault even if Liz was right. even Tess made him feel responsible. i remember the scene where Max cried and described how he felt when he couldn't heal Alex. everything that bitch was able to tell him was "but you HAD to try" (that scene is disgusting and so gross. she was the one who killed Alex for God's sake! and she took advantage even of it) i swear, i didn't know that she killed Alex but i hated her so much even without knowing. it wasn't about a stupid triangle. i just hated the way she could take advantage of people's misery and then make it seems that she was supporting them.


now, like i said at the beginning i believe that Liz's actions were ruled by the same guilty Max's felt and for this reason she was unreasonable too.
Liz for example couldn't accept the idea that Alex killed himself but she couldn't even accept the idea that he died for an accident. why?
Because Liz knew for sure that Alex was supposed to be alive at her wedding when he was 19 years old. When Alex died it destroyed her not only because he died and she did lose her best friend but because it made her feel responsible. Like, what happened to HIS future? i was supposed to change only mine and Max's, maybe the world. i did nothing in order to change his too. what i did that changed his future? how is possible that in the first timeline he was alive and then after i changed the future he died? How is possible that an accident happened into this timeline but not in the first one? what i did in order to create this?
the writers were clever because actually this was one of the hidden clues about evil Tess. because what Liz really changed in the future was that in the first timeline Tess wasn't there with them while into this timeline she was.

Both M&L wanted to believe in the theory that made them less responsible of Alex's death. then we all know that Liz's one was right and it's not the point.
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Re: Who loves who more?? Max or Liz?? and why do you think so??

Postby Sin » Sun Sep 07, 2008 11:49 am

for me it was both their fault while for you Liz was TOTALLY innocent and she did nothing wrong


It's not the fact that I don't acknowledge that Liz hurt Max. I do and I understand how much her actions hurt him but ultimately it was inevitable. It couldn't be stopped. Liz had to do that to him. She had to get him to fall out of love with her so that way the world would be safe. It's not that I am devaluing his painful experiences but again Liz was in a no win situation here where she was not the kind of person who would choose selfishly. Telling Max the truth would have not made him fall out of love with her and it's clear from TEOTW that was the entire point of what needed to happen. Max needed to fall out of love with her so that way the world would be safe. Liz needed to lie and needed to break his heart otherwise it wouldn't have worked. Telling Max that she would die for him, that she did love him and that she wanted to be with him forever would have still led to a world where they were attacked by their enemies. Atleast from the information Liz was given. Again I don't see how Liz had a choice. It wasn't easy for her but she did it for Max. I don't see what else she could have done. She was only human and she could only do so much with the information that she was given for the best of the group and the world. She couldn't have done anymore. She couldn't have turned to anyone of importance to change anything. That was the way things had to be. It wasn't a choice for her. There was no other option. It's not like she got pleasure from it or like Max was the only one hurting because of it.

only her actions are justified, only her feelings were important.


I didn't say that. I do understand the problems that Max faced and his hurt. That doesn't change the fact that he was completely wrong and completely unreasonable in ITBAITL and BIY.
Max had the right to know what the heck was happening and why Liz broke his heart.


He couldn't know. If he did the world would have ended.
It was HIS life too not just hers.


He had his life. He had his choice. The only thing Liz did was stop Max and her from having a romantic relationship. Again it isn't as if Liz wanted nothing to do with him. She just couldn't be a love interest for him. She couldn't be with him but she still wanted to be his friend. MITC, CYN, VLV, HOM, ARCC, ITBAITL, Departure, ect. all proved that.

you can't blame everything on Max like if he knew what Liz was really doing and he didn't care!


I don't blame him for that. I do however blame him for his inexcuseable behavior in ITBAITL and BIY. However there were other episodes where he did do just that and hurt her just for the sake of hurting her or was completely apathetic to her feelings.

again, Liz did hurt Max. she manipulated Max, she broke his heart over and over. no matter what her reasons were, she still did it!
for you she didn't hurt him a lot. for you she didn't affect him.


I understand and saw all of this. And while she did hurt him again she had no other choice here. If she didn't hurt him they're would have been disasterous consequences.
it's like if you're criticizing him accusing him of something but what you use in order to criticize him if also the proof that what you're saying is wrong.
again, he didn't love her enough because he slept with Tess when he still loved her enough


His love for her wasn't enough to stop him from sleeping with Tess when he still loved her. :lol: XD :dead:

I see your point.
IMO your logic could work better (or at least i could understand it more) if Max stopped to love Liz after he slept with Tess or he stopped to love Liz and then slept with Tess. that way we could say that he didn't love her enough.


My main point is that it's a betrayal to his feelings and to his love for her. Again just because Liz didn't love him (in his point of view) doesn't stop him from being in love with her. I personally think it's worse that he slept with Tess when he was still in love with Liz. I see it as a betrayal of an intimate proportion because he was still in love with Liz but he still slept with Tess.

so was Max. he was always there. but the only time he really needed her she couldn't support him either.


He wasn't always there. That's my point. When Liz needed him at her darkest and hardest moment he was nowhere to be found. He didn't believe in her. He didn't show her support. He didn't even take the time out to talk about why she was feeling the way she was and he wasn't even there for her after her best friend died. That's not being there for someone. Especially after Liz begged him to be her friend in his kitchen in CYN. Again Liz was the one who wanted to do this WITH Max but again Max was the one who was unwilling to give her the time of day. Moreover this isn't the first time this has happened. A similar situation happended in MITC where he broke off their friendship and gave her back his christmas gift.

As to Liz being there for Max again when Max asked for her or when ever she thought that he needed her she was there. Even despite the fact that Future Max warned her to stay away from Max Liz was still there for him. Look at ARCC, Departure or MITC. The entire season three also shows Liz being there for Max and supporting him. Again there is a major difference between the two when it comes to one needing the other and who is willing to provide that support

Liz didn't even understand how Max was feeling. she didn't even understand what was happening to him.


It's not as if Max was willing to open up or talk to her. He shut her down as soon as she announced her alien theory.

it's not that Liz was begging in cry your name and later, either.


She actually was. She even said an I quote "Just...Max still be my friend okay" in CYN. She was fine in giving Max up to Tess but she still needed him to be her friend. Also her actions were showing that she needed him then as well. Going to Max in the middle of that night, asking him to still be her friend no matter what, ect. ITBAITL further proved that Liz wanted Max to support her. She even asked him in so many words if he believed in her when she asked him if it was even a possiblity that an alien killed Alex and his word was no. Again all of these little things show that Liz was asking and begging him to support her.

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Re: Who loves who more?? Max or Liz?? and why do you think so??

Postby Coccy » Sun Sep 07, 2008 1:19 pm

again, just because Liz had to do it it doesn't mean that Max couldn't be hurt and affected by what she did to him
honestly after that speech from EOTW that i reposted here (the one "i don't want to die for you") i don't know how Max could be able to still love her or how he could be still able to have hopes.
that's not Liz. Liz wasn't so cruel and insensitive. what she said was so horrible. telling him that he was dangerous and she didn't want to die for his fault.. like if he didn't know it already! it was his worst fear and guilty.
and IMO that speech was way more horrible and insensitive than what Max did to her in ITLATB and BIY. seeing the way you see Max's actions into those episodes i can't imagine what you would have though if he was the one who told her those things she told him in EOTW and then slept with another person.

again, we all know that it wasn't the real Liz and she lied. but for Max it was the whole truth.





Sin wrote:It's not the fact that I don't acknowledge that Liz hurt Max. I do and I understand how much her actions hurt him but ultimately it was inevitable. It couldn't be stopped. Liz had to do that to him. She had to get him to fall out of love with her so that way the world would be safe.



i will avoid the "personally for me the whole thing made no sense and the world can't end just because Max loved Liz"
in the end M&L were together again and into a way or another she told him the truth. it was inevitable.
even if the world would have ended it wasn't their problem and she couldn't manipulate Max's feelings. he's not a toy.

again, no matter what her reasons were she still created something and she lived the consequences of it.



I didn't say that. I do understand the problems that Max faced and his hurt. That doesn't change the fact that he was completely wrong and completely unreasonable in ITBAITL and BIY.


i understand Liz's problems too. but just like for Max this doesn't change the fact that Liz wasn't completely right with her behavior in the whole season 2 and Cry your name and ITBAITL. in cry your name her phrases were insensitive especially the one toward Max. above all the people she knew how he felt and that was cruel.



He couldn't know. If he did the world would have ended.


in the end he got the truth. i doubt that the world will end and even if it will end...well it's not their problem i guess.
the whole idea of changing people's feelings is insane, he could never fall out of love with Liz
even after she told him horrible things and she did hurt him he didn't.

i'm surprised that someone like Liz that is so clever didn't think about the possibility that Max's feelings for her weren't the real problem.

in the end Max almost died before time. it was all for nothing.



He had his life. He had his choice. The only thing Liz did was stop Max and her from having a romantic relationship.


it seems that we fail to understand each other here.
again, Max wasn't a muppet that people could manipulate in order to make him love someone instead or someonelse
he had the right to know that someone was trying to change his future, he had the right to be selfish and make the choice to not care about what FMax said. but he never got it. they played with him manipulating him

Liz not only didn't tell him what was happening but she made him believe into things that weren't real.

If Max had know the truth he would have tried to be friends with Tess in order to make her stay without having to love someone he didn't love and without having to sacrifice his happiness.

it's not that after EOTW Max magically started to be with Tess. the contrary. but things changed, she started to have a family with the Valenti's. come on they had other choices. who said that Tess really loved Max and wanted only him, then?

I'm sure that Liz wanted to tell him the truth more than once but she was confused and unsure and then when she wanted it was too late.
IMO after the whole mess she thought about it and she regretted all the times she could have told him the truth and she didn't. because in the end she did however. their pain was all for nothing.





However there were other episodes where he did do just that and hurt her just for the sake of hurting her or was completely apathetic to her feelings.


what?? :shock:



I understand and saw all of this. And while she did hurt him again she had no other choice here. If she didn't hurt him they're would have been disasterous consequences.


what disastrous consequences? more than Alex's death and Tess' betrayal?
again, sooner or later she told him however.

sorry but i still believe that she had a choice even one that could make her selfish. but it was still a choice.
no one could fault her and Max for the end of the world
it was Tess' fault. If Tess was so selfish to not help their purpose as a group just because Max didn't want to be her toy it wasn't Max&Liz's fault.


His love for her wasn't enough to stop him from sleeping with Tess when he still loved her. :lol: XD :dead:


i still find it contradictory but... don't mind xD


My main point is that it's a betrayal to his feelings and to his love for her. Again just because Liz didn't love him (in his point of view) doesn't stop him from being in love with her. I personally think it's worse that he slept with Tess when he was still in love with Liz. I see it as a betrayal of an intimate proportion because he was still in love with Liz but he still slept with Tess.


apart from finding it still contradictory (very. sorry :lol: ), again, just because he wasn't strong enough to face his personal crisis without making mistakes (with a manipulative bitch always on him like glue) it doesn't automatically mean that he didn't love Liz deeply and completely with no doubt.
and he proved it before and after that stupid mistake.

to me there's no other man in the world who love a woman so much like Max loves Liz (and viceversa).
he proved it with things that no other man (at least not from all the other tv.show i saw) did for his woman.

again, with examples like chant down babylon everything is irrelevant, i need no more. that example transcended everything. surely that mistake made when he was into a very bad state and he didn't know the truth can't change his love and my opinion of his love for her.

to me the fact that he still loved Liz no matter what is even more a proof that is love was total and undeniable.

he still loved her even when she did hurt him so much and even when he was with someone like Tess who was always supportive and seemed to love him. even after he got fake memories from a past where it seemed that he loved her. even after he got her pregnant and she manipulated him. nothing could stop his love for Liz and even Tess knew it.
i can't see other men who could be the same into his situation. who could still love a woman no matter what like him, if that wasn't unconditional love i don't know what it was.

the future couldn't be changed. not the core thing. in the end no matter what Max would never fall out of love with Liz.

again, just because he wasn't always strong and he was vulnerable once it doesn't mean that his love was not strong (otherwise Liz's love wasn't strong too for other scenes and it's an absurdity for me). it was strong because it always survived everything even his vulnerably
love can be always strong but not the person who feels it.



He wasn't always there. That's my point. When Liz needed him at her darkest and hardest moment he was nowhere to be found.


so Liz.

He didn't believe in her. He didn't show her support. He didn't even take the time out to talk about why she was feeling the way she was and he wasn't even there for her after her best friend died.


again, we disagree. he was with her.
it seems that you watched only the end of cry your name and not the whole episode.

Especially after Liz begged him to be her friend in his kitchen in CYN.


that was before the whole crap.
before she told him that horrible phrase in the end


Moreover this isn't the first time this has happened. A similar situation happended in MITC where he broke off their friendship and gave her back his christmas gift.


She betrayed him, told him horrible things and then slept with Kyle and confirmed it (from his POV) and he couldn't even be angry?
thank God he took the idea to be her friend even in consideration later! he had all the right to be angry
just like Liz had all the right to put their friendship away in the end of ITATB no?


As to Liz being there for Max again when Max asked for her or when ever she thought that he needed her she was there.


so what? they needed to ask in order to be helped?


Again there is a major difference between the two when it comes to one needing the other and who is willing to provide that support

and , again, i totally disagree.



It's not as if Max was willing to open up or talk to her. He shut her down as soon as she announced her alien theory.


what you pretended from him?
and it's not that Liz was really willing to open up or talk to him either. i'm sorry but if she was she showed it badly. (and, again, it's not that i fault her for it! it's you the one who pretend that people must be perfect. i correct, that Max must be perfect at any cost.) you can't ask someone to be your friend after you accused him of being responsible of the death of your best friend.

also, it's not that Max could ask her about the fake Liz she herself created. he didn't know that it was a lie, in the first place. for him it was real.
Liz was the only one who knew that it was a lie ^^""" so she was the only one who could think about it ^^" the only one with a truth to reveal.







She actually was. She even said an I quote "Just...Max still be my friend okay" in CYN.


again, this was before the end when she was a part of the argument that created the mess between them
and in that moment, when she said it, Max was her friend.

she didn't say it later when they were, obviously, angry toward each other.
she said something similar it in departure only when she and Max were ok again and he agreed with her.
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Re: Who loves who more?? Max or Liz?? and why do you think so??

Postby Sin » Sun Sep 07, 2008 2:28 pm

again, just because Liz had to do it it doesn't mean that Max couldn't be hurt and affected by what she did to him


I agree with you. I am not devalutating Max's hurt feelings. I am just saying that I believe that Liz made the right choices with the information she was given.
If Max had know the truth he would have tried to be friends with Tess in order to make her stay without having to love someone he didn't love and without having to sacrifice his happiness.


Would that have been enough for Tess? Honestly. The fact that she would have no chance with Max and that her destiny wouldn't be fufilled and that she wouldn't be his Queen? I don't think Max and Tess just being friends would have worked and they would have been in the same situation they were in with TEOTW.

it's not that after EOTW Max magically started to be with Tess. the contrary. but things changed, she started to have a family with the Valenti's. come on they had other choices. who said that Tess really loved Max and wanted only him, then?


Kyle was a distraction. You can even tell that in HOM that she always wanted Max. She wouldn't have settled for just being "friends" with him I think that was something that was very apparent from the start. Tess was just not willing to let go of her Max obsession.

what disastrous consequences? more than Alex's death and Tess' betrayal?


The entire world would have ended. I think that trumps everything. A very real apocolypse.
sorry but i still believe that she had a choice even one that could make her selfish. but it was still a choice.
no one could fault her and Max for the end of the world


That wasn't what Future Max told her.
just like Liz had all the right to put their friendship away in the end of ITATB no?


Again it wasn't Liz who put there friendship away. LIz wanted Max to help her, it was Max who denied her and their friendship.
so what? they needed to ask in order to be helped?


Wasn't it you who once said someone can't read minds? The same goes here. Again there is a totally different story when Liz supports Max (she always supported him and was always there when she felt that he needed her) and when Max supports Liz.

and it's not that Liz was really willing to open up or talk to him either.


Except sh was alot more open with him then he was with her. Liz told him how she felt about Alex's death being ruled a suicide. Not wanting to be alone. Wanting to be with him in the middle of the night, ect. and she was even honest about her theory that Alex was murdered. Again Liz was alot more open about what she needed, how she felt and what she wanted then Max was. While Max shut her down completely and she had no clue what was going on with him.
she didn't say it later when they were, obviously, angry toward each other.


She asked him for his support again in ITBAITL and again he shut her out when she needed his support.

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Re: Who loves who more?? Max or Liz?? and why do you think so??

Postby Coccy » Mon Sep 08, 2008 6:05 am

Sin wrote:I agree with you. I am not devalutating Max's hurt feelings. I am just saying that I believe that Liz made the right choices with the information she was given.


and i partly agree. just like i partly agree that Max did what he thought it was right with the informations he was given.


Would that have been enough for Tess? Honestly. The fact that she would have no chance with Max and that her destiny wouldn't be fufilled and that she wouldn't be his Queen? I don't think Max and Tess just being friends would have worked and they would have been in the same situation they were in with TEOTW.


the point is that nothing was enough. the plan couldn't work.
and it couldn't work because:
- Max wasn't a muppet who could stop to love Liz and fall in love with Tess just because Tess wanted the toy..ehm.. him
- Tess wasn't supposed to help them. She wasn't the key. Tess was so obsessed about Max because she needed him in order to get home. Max was supposed to die in the end

FMax and FLiz were presumptuous because they took for granted that Tess left just because Max didn't want her while she could have tons of other reasons.
Ultimately we can say that most likely Tess left because she had no hope. Since her plan was to get Max's happy swimmers and she couldn't get them, she left. She didn't care about his feelings and his friendship nor their purpose as a group. otherwise she would have stayed.

in the first timeline they died after 15 years. into this timeline they almost died way before.

this is what happens when people try to change the future without knowing for sure if they can really change it. and FMax and FLiz didn't know Tess and what her real feelings and reasons were.
i understand them because they were desperate and when you're desperate you don't use logic.

but their plan not only didn't make sense but it was dangerous too and it really was in the end because Alex died and Tess almost killed Max&Co.



Kyle was a distraction. You can even tell that in HOM that she always wanted Max. She wouldn't have settled for just being "friends" with him I think that was something that was very apparent from the start. Tess was just not willing to let go of her Max obsession.


after knowing about evil Tess it's obvious. but before they changed the plot Kyle was a love interest for her, even the writers kind of admitted that they wanted to put them together.
the future already changed.
FMax believed that Tess only wanted him otherwise no help from them. After EOTW Max wasn't hers but she did find things that the previous Tess didn't find, maybe. and she stayed in roswell and it seemed that she would have helped them even if Max didn't want to be into a relationship with her.

the future changed already.

The entire world would have ended. I think that trumps everything. A very real apocolypse.


so you believe that it will happen now?

Personally i don't take it for granted. many things changed compared to the first timeline. now they have Ava, Liz's powers. and after all Tess wasn't the key- she was a betrayer. maybe the reason of why the world ended into FMax and FLiz's timeline.
because in the first timeline Kivar didn't get a human heir from Max that could prove him and the antarians that their supposed king was useless. in the first timeline Kivar didn't get a real proof that Max didn't want to rule, maybe.



That wasn't what Future Max told her.


FMax vanished. it was Liz the one who still lived the consequences of what happened so she had all the right to find another choice based on what she *knew* and not about what FMax couldn't know.

also, FMax said in the end:

LIZ: So Max and...Tess are going to be together now.

FUTURE MAX: I don't know. I don't know anything now. This is a different world.

LIZ: I'm gonna be alone.

FUTURE MAX: Maybe. Maybe not. From now on, the future is to be determined. It's what've always said to you, Liz. We create our own destiny.



Again it wasn't Liz who put there friendship away. LIz wanted Max to help her, it was Max who denied her and their friendship.

..



Except sh was alot more open with him then he was with her. Liz told him how she felt about Alex's death being ruled a suicide. Not wanting to be alone. Wanting to be with him in the middle of the night, ect. and she was even honest about her theory that Alex was murdered. Again Liz was alot more open about what she needed, how she felt and what she wanted then Max was. While Max shut her down completely and she had no clue what was going on with him.

...

She asked him for his support again in ITBAITL and again he shut her out when she needed his support.


but, again, you can't ask people to be your friend and attack them at the same time
she couldn't ask him to admit that he was responsible of Alex's death
she couldn't ask him to be friends when she didn't believe in him and she didn't trust him

this may be not what Liz did or intended but it's what Max believed that she was doing and he believed it because of her words not only in cry your name but in EOTW too.



so what? they needed to ask in order to be helped?


Wasn't it you who once said someone can't read minds? The same goes here. Again there is a totally different story when Liz supports Max (she always supported him and was always there when she felt that he needed her) and when Max supports Liz.


so the same goes for Max too :roll: when he needed her in destiny and the whole summer and then in ITLTB she couldn't have understood it without him telling her too no? The same goes here too.

see, the problem of this whole discussion is that you want to establish who loved more between them using things that can be applied on both of them.
you want to establish who loved more between them without a doubt using examples that weren't even about their "love" but more about how they felt toward their own self. i don't know how to explain it....
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Cocogurl
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Re: Who loves who more?? Max or Liz?? and why do you think so??

Postby Cocogurl » Mon Sep 08, 2008 7:23 am

I think this argument is becoming a little redundant. We all keep saying the same things and we can't defend one character without seeming like we're against the other. :lol:

And the only problem I have is that if what happened in EOTW was part of the reason Max acted the way he did towards Liz after Alex's death, then in a way it is proof that he didn't really forgive her, at least not completely anyway. People can say they forgive someone without truly meaning it, and real forgiveness is about being able to move past the hurt and not using it as a reason to not believe in a friend. And I can also apply that same logic to Liz. Even though she tried to act as if she had forgiven Max for sleeping with Tess, her big blowup in Ch-ch-changes was prove that she hadn't really forgiven Max either.

Like when I said what happened in EOTW had nothing to do with ITLAITB, what I meant was that Alex was killed...by an ALIEN! And I think at that particular moment it shouldn't have been about Liz sleeping with Kyle or Liz's anger towards Max, it should've been about Alex. I guess that's probably what makes me angry. I feel like the gang sorta let Alex down in a way, for all of their own reasons, which I respect. But they didn't even all come back together until Departure and sometimes certain things happen that kinda trump how you're feeling at the moment.

Now I personally think that Liz probably should've apologized for her outburst at the end of CYN. I think she could've handled it better than she did, but I see where she's coming from and I see where Max is coming from also. I just think that Max should've believed in her more than he did. And I'm not talking about believing in them as a couple, I'm talking about just believing in Liz and the person that she's always been. Even if Liz had really slept with Kyle, it doesn't change the fact that this is still the same Liz who had protected their secret for two years, the same Liz who almost lost Alex as a friend completely cause she refused to tell him their secret, and despite her little speech about "not wanting to die" for Max, he actions in the rest of season two still spoke of how devoted she was still was to the pod squad and even to Max, ARCC for example and many other episodes in season 2 that I'm not going to list right now.

Max's feelings are extremely valid to me and I can definitely see how he got from point A to B in season 2. I just think that Max should've backed her up more than he did. It shouldn't have been about Liz sleeping with Kyle, it should've been about the kind of loyal friend that Liz had been in the past and still was even after her speech in EOTW. Does anyone see why that bugs me a little? :lol:

But like I've said before, I don't think this about who loved who more. Because we all saw several times and in several different occasions that they both loved each other very much. They were just kids forced to deal with things that no one should have to go through. At 17, Max had discovered that he had a past life, a past wife, and that he was the king of another planet. That is a huge amount of stuff for anyone to deal with. And from his POV, it would seem like everyone abandoned him.

And the same could be said for Liz's POV too. She was just a teenager when she got shot, saved by an alien, and in season 2, she had to carry the weight of the world on shoulders, constantly worrying about every decision she made when it came to Max, wondering if that could lead to the end of the world. That's also an incredible amount to deal with. And we can't really judge who's pain was worse, because how would we know? Weren't not the ones who have to go through that. And though I do believe a lot of Liz's decisions were a bit more selfless than Max's, especially in season 2 and 3, I totally see Max's side of it, and I can understand why he did some of the things that he did.

But I think the point should be that we all love Max and Liz, and we know that they both loved each other with all their hearts. They're soulmates which is why I can't really say who loved who more.


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