Unpopular Opinions...Round 2

[begonia9508]

I agree with all you wrote, especially that Max has the right to do what Liz "did"!
What I don't understand and what Liz was bothered was the fact that he had a condom in his porte-monnaie and that he did not used it..... For a guy who was SO clever he was really stupid.... and don't tell me that Tess mindwarped him!...
Liz would have come back with him even if he slept with Tess bc they weren't together at this time but the baby, that's too much to forget and every girl would certainly think about it twice b4 getting involved again...

EVE

[jake17]

I do think, though, that she shouldn't have just let him off the hook for not being there for her. I mean, the fact is, Liz did everything for him. She was always there for Max and Michael and Isabel, she made so many sacrifices for them, and put herself in so much danger to protect them and the ONE time Liz needed him to be there for her for a change, he wasn't. And while I understand that Max was going through a lot at the time, so was Liz. She has been since she found out the truth about him, but she's always come through no matter how scared she was and no matter what she was going through, she always put Max first. I had just hoped for that same kind of loyalty. For me, if I were Liz, that would've been just such a damaging blow to any trust I had for him and I wouldn't have taken him back so fast. And there would've been some trust that needed to be built.

Cassie I"m just wondering by what you mean when you say "wasn't there for him"
Did you mean about her trying to find out what happened to Alex?
IF so I do agree with you, he really shut her down, and for the only reason being was that he was afraid to bring attention to the rest of them. that must have been painful for her.

I do think that the reason if not at least part of the reason was that he couldn't mentally handle it if he knew that he (or his presence here) had anything to do with Alex's death...especially because he couldn't heal him.

I could be totally wrong on this but Its the feeling I got from it, but I agree not only didn't he support her but he basically ordered her to not follow through with her leads on trying to find him.

One of my favorite moments with Liz is when she's waiting for the cab to pick her up and take her to the airport and Max pulls up and demands that she gets in the jeep. Not only does he demands this but he picks up her duffle bag and grabs her by the arm...
The moment that she stands up for him was so awesome... I really think he was acting irractionally because he felt everything spinning out of control and his reaction to that is to become very controlling. He was definitely in the wrong but I think when you feel like someone is slipping away your first reaction is too hold on tighter.

When she stood up for herself and said that line " you can't pull the king card out of me" or something to that effect, i was cheering for her. I love that her love for her friend Alex drove her to defy Max and be the independent woman she was growing into.

It really fit perfectly into that arc of Liz thinking for herself. and figuring out who she is.

I don't think Max is horrible for this, I just think he went with what he knew, he was acting very "human'" ...we all make mistakes out of desperation...it felt llike to me as if he was truly lost, not feeling as if he belonged in this world or the planet he knew very little about.

I do feel as if there was a little mindwarping involved too. She just happened to be at the observatory at that particular moment? that was sure convient!

Plus she was well aware of everything going on, it was more than obvious she totally took advantage of him, hitting when he was at his weakest.

Still I really hate that the writers chose to do this... I really feel that his first time had to be with Liz, after everything , that was something that should've been shared between them. And its something you can never take back. that made me more upset then anything.

They could've and should've made Liz's and Max's first time so beautiful and special, they owed it to us, we were definitely robbed of that moment.

No stoning, only applauding from me. I love when die hard dreamers can see the Tex situation from a rational and reasonable pov. My own opinion is that Liz was a bitch to Max during season two and she had no right to get on her high horse about him sleeping with Tess after everything she did to him. I believe that her intentions were mostly good but they were wrong and Max was the one who got hurt.

thanks tequathisy!

I also believe he was treated very unfairy during season two, the amount of times sleeping with Tess was thrown in her face was insane!

I remember yelling at the screne, but YOU slept with kyle! (or at least that's what you led Max to believe)

Ugh! the whole thing was a big mess if you ask me.


OMG i ALMOST FORGOT ABOUT WHAT EVE SAID!

I totally agree with you begonia!!!! That whole argument between FMax and her was just strange. Max is very responsible and totally in love with Liz, why would it be so far fetched to think that he would have a condom in his pocket??

I mean in the first season she's suggesting that they go to any length to find out what all the flashes were about that were driving them to "be close", She was SO ready to have sex with him in Michael's apartment before Maria interrupted them and in the desert until they heard the beeping communicator noise!

So what all of a sudden she's the virginal queen! completely mortified at the very idea that he would even think of such a thing as to actually want to make love to her???

ok so maybe she's talking about how things have changed since he found out about his stupid destiny in the cave, I can see how she doesn't feel that they are exactly where they were in the first season but to get "that" upset? I mean its quite obvious Max isn't just out to get into her pants. omg just the sound of that is ridiculous!...all he did was pine over her all summer and chase her since he came back.

I just sat there in shock, I mean that scene started out so awesome! Hearing fmax tell her that, that night they made love...whew! i was swooning!!!! And then she freaks out like a lunatic!

WTF was that all about??? She is even brought to tears over this!!!!! There were many moments I was left scratching my head wondering what the hell was going on...that was definitely one of them!

Carrie

[Cocogurl]

I do think, though, that she shouldn't have just let him off the hook for not being there for her. I mean, the fact is, Liz did everything for him. She was always there for Max and Michael and Isabel, she made so many sacrifices for them, and put herself in so much danger to protect them and the ONE time Liz needed him to be there for her for a change, he wasn't. And while I understand that Max was going through a lot at the time, so was Liz. She has been since she found out the truth about him, but she's always come through no matter how scared she was and no matter what she was going through, she always put Max first. I had just hoped for that same kind of loyalty. For me, if I were Liz, that would've been just such a damaging blow to any trust I had for him and I wouldn't have taken him back so fast. And there would've been some trust that needed to be built.

Cassie I"m just wondering by what you mean when you say "wasn't there for him"
Did you mean about her trying to find out what happened to Alex?
IF so I do agree with you, he really shut her down, and for the only reason being was that he was afraid to bring attention to the rest of them. that must have been painful for her.

I do think that the reason if not at least part of the reason was that he couldn't mentally handle it if he knew that he (or his presence here) had anything to do with Alex's death...especially because he couldn't heal him.

I could be totally wrong on this but Its the feeling I got from it, but I agree not only didn't he support her but he basically ordered her to not follow through with her leads on trying to find him.

One of my favorite moments with Liz is when she's waiting for the cab to pick her up and take her to the airport and Max pulls up and demands that she gets in the jeep. Not only does he demands this but he picks up her duffle bag and grabs her by the arm...
The moment that she stands up for him was so awesome... I really think he was acting irractionally because he felt everything spinning out of control and his reaction to that is to become very controlling. He was definitely in the wrong but I think when you feel like someone is slipping away your first reaction is too hold on tighter.

When she stood up for herself and said that line " you can't pull the king card out of me" or something to that effect, i was cheering for her. I love that her love for her friend Alex drove her to defy Max and be the independent woman she was growing into.

It really fit perfectly into that arc of Liz thinking for herself. and figuring out who she is.

I don't think Max is horrible for this, I just think he went with what he knew, he was acting very "human'" ...we all make mistakes out of desperation...it felt llike to me as if he was truly lost, not feeling as if he belonged in this world or the planet he knew very little about.

I do feel as if there was a little mindwarping involved too. She just happened to be at the observatory at that particular moment? that was sure convient!

Plus she was well aware of everything going on, it was more than obvious she totally took advantage of him, hitting when he was at his weakest.

Still I really hate that the writers chose to do this... I really feel that his first time had to be with Liz, after everything , that was something that should've been shared between them. And its something you can never take back. that made me more upset then anything.

They could've and should've made Liz's and Max's first time so beautiful and special, they owed it to us, we were definitely robbed of that moment.

No stoning, only applauding from me. I love when die hard dreamers can see the Tex situation from a rational and reasonable pov. My own opinion is that Liz was a bitch to Max during season two and she had no right to get on her high horse about him sleeping with Tess after everything she did to him. I believe that her intentions were mostly good but they were wrong and Max was the one who got hurt.

thanks tequathisy!

I also believe he was treated very unfairy during season two, the amount of times sleeping with Tess was thrown in her face was insane!

I remember yelling at the screne, but YOU slept with kyle! (or at least that's what you led Max to believe)

Ugh! the whole thing was a big mess if you ask me.


OMG i ALMOST FORGOT ABOUT WHAT EVE SAID!

I totally agree with you begonia!!!! That whole argument between FMax and her was just strange. Max is very responsible and totally in love with Liz, why would it be so far fetched to think that he would have a condom in his pocket??

I mean in the first season she's suggesting that they go to any length to find out what all the flashes were about that were driving them to "be close", She was SO ready to have sex with him in Michael's apartment before Maria interrupted them and in the desert until they heard the beeping communicator noise!

So what all of a sudden she's the virginal queen! completely mortified at the very idea that he would even think of such a thing as to actually want to make love to her???

ok so maybe she's talking about how things have changed since he found out about his stupid destiny in the cave, I can see how she doesn't feel that they are exactly where they were in the first season but to get "that" upset? I mean its quite obvious Max isn't just out to get into her pants. omg just the sound of that is ridiculous!...all he did was pine over her all summer and chase her since he came back.

I just sat there in shock, I mean that scene started out so awesome! Hearing fmax tell her that, that night they made love...whew! i was swooning!!!! And then she freaks out like a lunatic!

WTF was that all about??? She is even brought to tears over this!!!!! There were many moments I was left scratching my head wondering what the hell was going on...that was definitely one of them!

Carrie

Carrie, I loved your post! You said so much that I really agreed with and stuff that I really want to respond to. I just hope that this whole thing will make sense and that the fact that it’s early in the morning won’t hinder my ability to spell. Though it probably will.

In answer to your question, yes, I was talking about Alex in a way. The way he handled everything after Liz’s announcement at the funeral upset me. Though I do think Liz should’ve waited to tell everyone about her theory when she was calmer and thinking more rationally, but I was rooting for her the entire time because she was right. And the truth of the matter is that Max, Michael and Isabel owe their human friends a lot. If wasn’t for Liz, Maria, Alex, Kyle and Valenti who knows what would’ve happened to them. I mean, these people have given their lives for them and have had to sacrifice a lot because of that, so I felt like Alex deserved more than he got.

And more than that I felt like Max should’ve been there for Liz because she was always there for him. Since day one, anytime he’s ever really needed her, she’s come through for him. I’m not saying that he hasn’t been there for her because he has, but the fact that he didn’t believe in her or support her in this when it was so important to her upset me. And if I were Liz, it would’ve ruined some of the trust I had for him. And there was something he said in ITLAITB that I just can’t quite get over. “Even if there was anything remotely alien about this, our cover’s the best defense.” Though Liz didn’t hear that speech, throughout that episode, from Liz’s POV it was like he was choosing to cover his own butt and Michael and Isabel’s rather than help Liz find the person who killed Alex, someone who had always been there for them as well.

And I know and agree with what your saying about Max’s guilt over Alex’s death and why he couldn’t quite believe that his death had anything to do with them. I mean, early in season one, Max showed that he cared about what his life did others around him and how it affected them, especially Liz. So I totally get Max not wanting to believe that Alex’s death had anything to do with them. But at the same time, I think similar guilt may have been a driving force behind Liz’s desire to find out who Alex’s killer was. I mean, if she had never listened to future Max, this never would’ve happened to Alex. I’d feel some guilt about that even though she was only doing what she thought was right.

Another thing I agree with is Liz standing up for herself at the end of ITLAITB because it was a very pivotal moment for her and really showed her starting to become an independent woman. Up until then, Liz kind of just always stood by Max, always kind of believed that everything he did was right, even with future Max. She just did what he wanted because it was Max. But at the end of this episode, I think she was finally seeing that Max isn’t always right and when it comes to something really important like her friends, she needs to stand up for herself and what she believes is right. It showed how strong she was. And I was proud of her for that.

This is yet another agreement. I agree with you about Max’s feelings during the end of that episode. When a person feels like their about to lose everything, it’s only natural for them to hold on tighter. And it’s probably really hard for a guy like Max, who’s a very in control guy and doesn’t like losing that control. Losing that control means losing his safety net. And that is scary.

I also hate that the writers had Max sleep with Tess, but I probably could’ve dealt with it more if they had executed it better. Like, they should’ve, in season 3, had Max and Liz really hash out their issues and everything that happened to them in season 2. But instead, they buried pretty much all of it. No discussion about Fmax, no REAL discussion about Max’s relationship with Tess. It was just all gone. And even if they didn’t share their first together, the writers should’ve shown us dreamers a glimpse of Max and Liz sleeping together in the series finale. We were SO owed that! Especially after we had to endure the horror of seeing Max and Tess together!

And I know these comments weren’t directed at me, but I’d like to respond to them anyway. Liz bringing up Max sleeping with Tess I kind of get in a weird way, not because I believe Max cheated on Liz--though I do admit that I was one of the ones that was FURIOUS at Max when he slept with Tess and almost hated him for it *hangs her head down in shame. * But when I really looked at it, I realized I had no real reason to be mad at him--but because it was actually a very human thing in reality. Have you ever had something bad happen and even though you KNOW in your head that it was your actions that lead to that bad thing, you can’t seem to get your heart to believe it? I’ve experienced that before and I think that that was what Liz was going through. I think, in her head, she knew that Max really didn’t cheat on her, but couldn’t quite get her heart to believe it too. And it makes it harder when there is a baby involved.

If he had just slept with Tess, it would’ve been easier to get over, but the fact that he got her pregnant makes it harder. Because, for Liz, there is this constant reminder of what he and Tess shared and how they are now connected to each other. That would be so hard and painful to deal with under any circumstance. So I actually kind of understand what she’s feeling there.

And her feelings in EOTW were weird, but I kind of just interpreted them as being overwhelmed and overloaded with emotions from stuff that didn’t seem to fit her at the time. Though she was completely ready to have sex with Max in the first season, a lot of things happened between then and EOTW to make her question why she’d just have sex with Max when they weren’t even back together yet. It probably, to her, didn’t feel like something she would do at the time. I mean, she was even a little shocked when Fmax said that they got married nineteen. At the time, for Liz, it probably didn’t feel like something she would do.

Her fight with Fmax and her overreaction to finding out that her and Max slept together and that he had a condom, I felt, was probably Liz being overwhelmed and overloaded with getting all of this information that about stuff that didn’t seem like her and Max at the time from a Max that didn’t even exist yet. Yes, I know this probably makes no sense, but it’s really early and I’m tired so please forgive me. That’s all I got when I'm this tired. And I'm heading to be now, so goodnight. Hopefully I can explain more after I get some sleep.

[Cocogurl]

double post.

[begonia9508]

I understand as well why she acted on FMax's demande.... By seing him all grey and so well-build gave her the comfirmation that she was destined to be his queen and that they had already a life together.... so she acted like she was...!
I would have walked to the China walls for him .... he was the love of her life and in his behaviour toward her, he was like Max season 1!

Season 3 for me was a total mixed-up and even the end was a deception with them going away... even if he married Liz...

EVE

[jake17]

I also hate that the writers had Max sleep with Tess, but I probably could’ve dealt with it more if they had executed it better. Like, they should’ve, in season 3, had Max and Liz really hash out their issues and everything that happened to them in season 2. But instead, they buried pretty much all of it. No discussion about Fmax, no REAL discussion about Max’s relationship with Tess. It was just all gone. And even if they didn’t share their first together, the writers should’ve shown us dreamers a glimpse of Max and Liz sleeping together in the series finale. We were SO owed that! Especially after we had to endure the horror of seeing Max and Tess together!

And more than that I felt like Max should’ve been there for Liz because she was always there for him. Since day one, anytime he’s ever really needed her, she’s come through for him. I’m not saying that he hasn’t been there for her because he has, but the fact that he didn’t believe in her or support her in this when it was so important to her upset me. And if I were Liz, it would’ve ruined some of the trust I had for him. And there was something he said in ITLAITB that I just can’t quite get over. “Even if there was anything remotely alien about this, our cover’s the best defense.” Though Liz didn’t hear that speech, throughout that episode, from Liz’s POV it was like he was choosing to cover his own butt and Michael and Isabel’s rather than help Liz find the person who killed Alex, someone who had always been there for them as well.

And I know and agree with what your saying about Max’s guilt over Alex’s death and why he couldn’t quite believe that his death had anything to do with them. I mean, early in season one, Max showed that he cared about what his life did others around him and how it affected them, especially Liz. So I totally get Max not wanting to believe that Alex’s death had anything to do with them. But at the same time, I think similar guilt may have been a driving force behind Liz’s desire to find out who Alex’s killer was. I mean, if she had never listened to future Max, this never would’ve happened to Alex. I’d feel some guilt about that even though she was only doing what she thought was right.

Cassie! Hello! Ok let me just say I totally agree with you, I"m so happy i'm not alone in this!


About what you said about feeling Max wasn't really 'there' for Liz. I am so right there with you!

You are right, maybe the funeral wasn't the right time to explode with this theory of hers BUT i'm sorry her best friend has just died and what's worse its being concidered a suicide, to know in your heart that Alex would never do that and watch as everyone just blindly accepts it would drive me around the bend a little too..

and do you know what really bothered me too??

What she said is that she believed that an Alien was involved in his death. Now its absolutely obvious that she DID NOT mean Max, Isabel or Michael. I really don't understand why they reacted so angrily towards her.. like she was accusing THEM. which she wasn't ...now like I said, i can see if they would get defensive because they love Alex and to think that the reason for his death might have something to do with Aliens would really upset them... but to get THAT upset with her was uncalled for. it was obviously not directed towards them.

I especially didn't like that Tess took Max's arm and said "lets go" shoving it in liz's face that THEY are together now, and unless Im remembering it wrong she actually says something like people will hear or this a funeral...something to that effect..like she should be sticking her nose in this at all!... ok see i believe this is not a case of jealously but of loyalty. Max and Liz share a bond that is deeper than any friendship. He should've stepped up and been more supportive. She needed him and he walks out the door with Tess on his arm... that really pissed me off.

And it just got worse as time went on... as you so well described above Cassie!

When Liz came to him about evidence that she was finding about leads to possible explanations, he was really not even open to listening to anything so had to say.When she said do you believe that there is a chance that Alex was murdered and he said "no". Wow. gone was that sweet sensitive Max who cared about her so much he wouldve done anything for her, that's for sure. He absolutely should've been there for her, even if he didn't agree with her,

back in season one she had blindly went on faith when she saw him kissing TEss outside on that rainy night, she risked her life not knowing who was inside that house or what would happen to her just to find out the truth and help him.

Even if they weren't together physically in a romantic relationship he owed it to her be there as a friend, and I"m sorry to be more concerned about the welfare of everyone else was just a slap in the face.

it was obvious he was losing control, remember in the hallway at school when she got that phone call from the Swedish embasy talking about helping her with that building.... he phyically grabbed her arm, and she was shocked saying "your hurting me" I swear he did that not to hurt her but he just couldn't handle how Liz was become her own person and making her own choices and she couldn't be pushed into doing what he wanted anymore... I think he had a very hard time with this.

His loss of control over everyone was overwhelming for him I believe, and I think it hit him all at once that he was in fact losing everyone and it was his fault.

I think when you are in that much pain you become desperate to find anything that will numb it.. that will enable you to escape from reality even if its' just for a little while..

It was so blantant when he woke up next to Tess after they slept together that he knew what he had done was very wrong. It was all over his face and later at Kyle's house he was acting all strange.. he knew it, but it was too late..

plus I do agree, having Tess actually pregnant changes everything for Liz, it must be near impossible to accept or understand...very painful..

I truly believe it was the perfect storm, him having all these emotional fights with Michael, Isabel and especially Liz. Feeling completely alone and lost, feeling too that who he was inside was wrong... the 'alien" side..and being sick of feeling that way, worrying about it all the time. And there is Tess, totally accepting him for exactly who his is, expecially his alien side that he has always been ashamed of, plus giving him a feeling that they had this whole other life together and that 'this' isn't really home... that "up there'" is...

please perfect escape, mix in a little mindwarping... and well...yuck!

saying all that I sympathize with him, understand him, because all this is just human reactions and we all have them, we all make mistakes ...we are all weak sometimes.

So yes I agree, he should've been more or at all supportive of LIz and her search for the truth with Alex...definitely!

I also hate that the writers had Max sleep with Tess, but I probably could’ve dealt with it more if they had executed it better. Like, they should’ve, in season 3, had Max and Liz really hash out their issues and everything that happened to them in season 2. But instead, they buried pretty much all of it. No discussion about Fmax, no REAL discussion about Max’s relationship with Tess. It was just all gone. And even if they didn’t share their first together, the writers should’ve shown us dreamers a glimpse of Max and Liz sleeping together in the series finale. We were SO owed that! Especially after we had to endure the horror of seeing Max and Tess together!

OMG OMG CASSIE!!!! i sooooo agree with you!!!!!!!

This was just too stupid for words... i mean they go threw this whole thing for an entire season of Max thinking she slept with kyle and when she FINALLY admits she didn't (by merely nodding i might add ) they just leave it there??? there's no explanation ...nothing??? he doesn't want to know why?? COME ON! She basiclaly ruins them and destroys him and he just accepts her little nod??? that just makes no sense! and she says NOTHING about FMax?? its just left there??? that was one of the main plot lines for season two and they just blow it... just ignore it...
it was careless and a slap in the face to us..

AND Should i even attempt to explain my rage about not showing us the first time they make love???

We wait three freakin years, we endure Tess and all that crap, we patiently wait for them to finally get back to where they love each other and everything is good and ...and ... NOTHING!!!!!!!!!!
Cassie we were so robbed of the one moment we all were dying to see since the very beginning...
and what makes it all that much harder to stomach??? They filmed it!!!!! They actually filmed the making love scene and the ended up cutting it out!

unbelievable!

By the way you explained it very well why Liz probably was upset during the whole FMax scene about the condom... I really see your point, thank you for that.

I guess if a thirty year old Max Evans was telling me that we made love i wouldn't argue.. its hard for me to wrap my head around a 'no' in that situation.

Great comments Cassie!

carrie

[killjoy]

Yes Carrie I love how the first instinct for a Dreamer is to blame everything on Tess Now don't get me wrong I'm not saying that tv canon Tess was an angel or good or anything like that.Nope what I am saying is that Dreamers LOVE to scream "It's Tess's fault!" at everything when they should blame Future Max!

Without him you would have never had the Kyle/Liz sex fake out or Max/Tess hooking up.So in my book it's more Max's...well Future Max's....fault than anyones.

[jake17]

Yes Carrie I love how the first instinct for a Dreamer is to blame everything on Tess Now don't get me wrong I'm not saying that tv canon Tess was an angel or good or anything like that.Nope what I am saying is that Dreamers LOVE to scream "It's Tess's fault!" at everything when they should blame Future Max!

Without him you would have never had the Kyle/Liz sex fake out or Max/Tess hooking up.So in my book it's more Max's...well Future Max's....fault than anyones.

Ok KJ I think it's obvious that you knowing i'm a dreamer assumed that i was talking about everything being Tess's fault in my above posts...but if you had read what i wrote you would've seen that it's the exact opposite of what i was trying to say.

It's true that as a whole we do not like Tess, but being that we love the relationship between Max and LIz it kind of make sense why we would feel that way...

this does not however mean that every single dreamer is incapable of making a rational decision when it comes to who to blame in certain plot lines of the show.

I do think it's wrong to lump all "Dreamers" into a catagory of women who have a one track mind.

When i posted my opinion about the fact that I didn't believe that Max actually "cheated" on Liz when he slept with Tess, I recieved replies supporting my opinion, and also opening my eyes to points I didn't really understand, (as cassie did with explaining why she felt LIz had a good reason for being upset with FMax when he told them they made love)
After thinking about it I completely see her point of view and totally agree with her.

Being a dreamer means we love the romance of Max and Liz (unless I"m mistaken)
its sole meaning isn't "we hate Tess"

honestly we're too busy swooning over Max

KJ you should give us dreamers a break, we're not all that bad

But since we're on the subject..

we can blame her for many many other things

Killing Alex! , and mindwarping Kyle into carrying his body out to her car???
hmm... pretty bad Tess!
oh and making poor Max think that his baby was dying because he couldn't handle earths atmostphere?
oh yeah and the whole plan of delievering Max and the baby to Kivar...should i go on??



Don't worry I know you were probably distracted by that picture of Tess lying on the couch in Kyle football shirt when you wrote this ... I forgive you!

Carrie

[killjoy]

Don't worry I know you were probably distracted by that picture of Tess lying on the couch in Kyle football shirt when you wrote this ... I forgive you!

See shows what you know When she was wearing Kyle's football shirt she was laying on his bed! It was a man's dress shirt she was wearing on the couch! Get it right now Carrie

[jake17]

Don't worry I know you were probably distracted by that picture of Tess lying on the couch in Kyle football shirt when you wrote this ... I forgive you!

See shows what you know When she was wearing Kyle's football shirt she was laying on his bed! It was a man's dress shirt she was wearing on the couch! Get it right now Carrie

KJ i think you just proved my point!
Go back to staring at Tess and leave us dreamers alone