Tess the real dupe?

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valentinebaby
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Re: Tess the real dupe?

Post by valentinebaby »

Cocogurl wrote:
Rowedog wrote:Like you said, friendship is a two way street and while they didn't show Tess making an effort, they also didn't show Michael or Isabel - or any of them for that matter
Yeah, but Michael and Isabel didn't make great strides to become better friends with Liz, or Maria, or Alex. But you didn't see any of them become murderers and backstabbers. I'm sorry, but I'm not giving her the excuse that nobody made her feel welcome in the group, because that is NOT an excuse to me. To me, it doesn't matter that Michael and Isabel didn't go out of their way to make Tess a better part of their group. From the minute she got to Roswell, she knew what she and Nasedo were planning to do to the podsquad and that was all that mattered to her. Let's also not forget how Tess tried to break into the group in the first place. Mindwarping and manipulating. That doesn't inspire much trust from the people around you. Maybe Michael and Isabel didn't really try to have a better relationship with Tess because deep down, they sensed that even though she was one of them, she wasn't like them.

Sorry for my rant. :oops: It's just to me it doesn't mattered that Max didn't love her, or that Isabel and Michael didn't form a special bond with Tess. Non of it even comes to close to comparing to the fact that Tess came into their lives with plan to deliver them to Kivar by any means necessary.

Lol, I can't believe my thread sparked a debate! :lol:
Liz, Maria, and Alex already had a support system. They had loving parents, each other. They weren't raised and brain washed their entire lives, so why would they betray anyone. The closest they could've gotten to what Tess did was turn in the aliens, but Max had saved Liz's life, they owed him, without the aliens Liz would've died and Maria and Alex would've lost their best friend. Their situation was completely different than Tess'.

And sure she knew about Nesado's deal, but like I said before who knows what he told her. For all we know Nesado could've said that Zan was a tyrant and Khivar was trying to save the people of Antar, and she thought she was doing what was best for her people. Without forming some sort of friendship with the other three and getting to know them, she really had no reason not to follow through with the plan.
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Re: Tess the real dupe?

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Sorry, but that's just not an excuse to me. I don't care that Michael and Isabel didn't spend every second holding Tess' hand and making her feel special. Kyle and Jim brought her into their home, made her part of their family. That was her support system and how did she thank them for trying to give her that? She brainwashed Kyle into carrying Alex's dead body.

She had a choice, she chose to be a murderer. I'm sorry for how Nasedo raised her, but eventually people do have to be held accountable for their own actions, no matter what their past was. If we don't do that, than no one's responsible for anything bad that they do. Murderers can just be let of the hook because they were raised in bad homes. To me, it's getting too close to turning the bad guy into the victim and turning the real victims into the bad guys, and I don't see the justice in that. I just don't care what Tess' reasons were for betraying them, she did it.

Also, if Nasedo had told her that Zan was a tyrant and all that, than she should've known all along what the right thing to do was. It shouldn't be based at all, then, on how well Michael, Isabel and Max treated her. Or it shouldn't be based on whether or not Max loved her or not. Also, why didn't just nab the podsquad the moment they came to Roswell? It's not like they could've defended themselves against both Nasedo and Tess. Why did they need to get the go through all of the trouble of getting the gang to accept them and trust them? That doesn't make a lot of sense to me. :roll:

Maybe, Max, Michael and Isabel would've been nicer to Tess if they had known that their lives and safety were based on how well they treated her. :lol: :wink:
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Re: Tess the real dupe?

Post by valentinebaby »

Cocogurl wrote:Sorry, but that's just not an excuse to me. I don't care that Michael and Isabel didn't spend every second holding Tess' hand and making her feel special. Kyle and Jim brought her into their home, made her part of their family. That was her support system and how did she thank them for trying to give her that? She brainwashed Kyle into carrying Alex's dead body.

She had a choice, she chose to be a murderer. I'm sorry for how Nasedo raised her, but eventually people do have to be held accountable for their own actions, no matter what their past was. If we don't do that, than no one's responsible for anything bad that they do. Murderers can just be let of the hook because they were raised in bad homes. To me, it's getting too close to turning the bad guy into the victim and turning the real victims into the bad guys, and I don't see the justice in that. I just don't care what Tess' reasons were for betraying them, she did it.

Maybe, Max, Michael and Isabel would've been nicer to Tess if they had known that their lives and safety were based on how well they treated her. :lol: :wink:
LOL Quite possibly.

I honestly agree with you that she should be held accountable for her actions. No matter her reasons she still murdered Alex and she had every intention of delivering Max, Michael and Isabel into the hands of the enemy. I'm just saying that I understand why she did what she did. Tess has always been a problem character for me because yeah I feel horrible for her, but she hurt a lot of people, and Alex died. In a way she was a victim, maybe not by the pod squad but by Nesado, and it caused her to turn into a villain herself. I like to think she redeemed herself in the end, even if her actions ended up only causing more trouble.
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Re: Tess the real dupe?

Post by Cocogurl »

Yeah, I agree. I always thought it would be interesting to see a true redemption for her. She was always an interesting character to me...except when she was hanging all over Max. And while I feel bad for how she was raised and all of that, any real sympathy I could've had for her later in season 2 disappeared when she murdered one of my favorite characters and used another one of my fav characters to help dispose of the body. But, yeah, I see what you're saying.
That's why I can handle stories where she is a good guy and all that because she did have some good moments. I always liked her around Kyle and Jim. They brought out a more human side in her.
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Re: Tess the real dupe?

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Cocogurl wrote: Yeah, but Michael and Isabel didn't make great strides to become better friends with Liz, or Maria, or Alex. But you didn't see any of them become murderers and backstabbers.
I would say even Michael and Isabel were more welcoming originally to the humans then Tess was originally. Yeah Isabel and Michael were initially very threatened with Liz and Maria they still warmed to them rather quickly more or less. Isabel initially was very stand-offish but during the episode 285 South she tried to at least be friendly to Liz. Isabel and Maria had a bonding moment in Monsters. I also think in Missing, Michael was friendly to Liz and Michael and Liz also had a moment where she found that Topolsky had a file on him, etc. All in all Michael and Isabel were more open to be friends with the humans then Tess was. So I don't even think those comparisons are really all that valid.
Maybe Michael and Isabel didn't really try to have a better relationship with Tess because deep down, they sensed that even though she was one of them, she wasn't like them.
The funny thing is that I think Isabel and Michael could have been friends with if it was something she wanted. However she didn't want to cultivate those relationships because she was too concerned with getting in bed with Max. Michael and Tess actually could have been friends considering how both of them wanted to express their alien side and find home. Isabel and Tess could have been friends too if Tess wanted it. But she wasn't interested in them outside of them "knowing" who she was and after that she couldn't have cared less about them.
valentinebaby wrote:And sure she knew about Nesado's deal, but like I said before who knows what he told her. For all we know Nesado could've said that Zan was a tyrant and Khivar was trying to save the people of Antar, and she thought she was doing what was best for her people. Without forming some sort of friendship with the other three and getting to know them, she really had no reason not to follow through with the plan.
I'm sorry, my bias may be showing but I honestly can't picture Tess as the virtuous (or even misunderstood) heroine trying to save the world from big bad Max (when the show expressed to us several times that Max held no interest in going back to Antar). The deal in my opinion can in no way be justified as the right thing to do. Tess was planning a slaughter of her self proclaimed family and there's no getting around that. Isabel, Max and Michael would never hurt anyone. The only reason they were leaving was because Tess and the baby were dying. They were leaving earth to save her and it was all a mind game anyway. Tess had no reason to betray Max, Isabel or Michael. Tess was always more self-aware and more in control then your saying she was. Tess didn't get duped by Nascedo. She was apart from him and his rule for an entire year and yet she kept this secret from them and continued to plot against them from the beginning, it's not like we can't say Tess didn't have other options (hell she even flirted with the Kyle option before returning back to her plans). Even if we brush Alex's death off as an accident she still was going to send Max, Isabel and Michael off to their execution, and she even used her baby as a pawn in the game. I honestly think that this just showed that Tess is not capable of love. She couldn't understand it and she couldn't see why Michael, Max and Isabel were willing to do so much because of it.
valentinebaby wrote: Tess has always been a problem character for me because yeah I feel horrible for her,
I can't feel bad for her, because all of Tess' problems are self-inflicted. She could have a completely different life if she just chose differently and I can't feel bad for her up bringing with Nasedo because I don't believe he ever abused her, she never acted that way so I don't see it as something he imprinted on her in her up bringing. I do think that it affected her interaction with people and her belief in humans as less than, but again that can be changed and Tess never even tried to not act the way she did. Tess had too many choices to be pitied in my opinion, and I just can't find it within myself to feel bad for her. She was a spoiled brat most of the time and her character was always centered around being Queen at any cost even her babies welfare. It made too much sense to me that Tess winds up killing herself at 4AAAB, she had nothing left to live for. She failed at doing the one thing in life she most wanted to do - go home and be Queen. So it makes complete sense that after being so one track minded that she would self-destruct and want to end her days. She never wanted be on earth - she couldn't be on Antar - she couldn't have her thrown. I don't think she is a character that should be felt bad for. She made her choices and she owned them and was more or less proud of them.

I just have to say that there seems to be a bit of revisionism here. Tess was by no means a confused victim in all of this. She was way to proactive, way to in control and had numerous choices that she could of made but she made all of the wrong ones and she deserve contempt. I say to her fans revel in her evilness and own the canon of the character. Because that is true to who Tess is. To be honest I don't think Tess herself would ever want the label of victimized ingenue.
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Re: Tess the real dupe?

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Having moments isn't the same as ACTUALLY being close friends with somebody. I think for most of the first season, both Michael and Isabel more just learned how to tolerate Liz and Maria, because they couldn't change the fact that these two people knew their secret. I have friendly moments with some people in my life, but I wouldn't say I had a special connection with them.

And the writers would sometimes give the characters moments where it seemed like they making strides towards being good friends, and they'd go back a few steps and it went back to seeming like Michael and Isabel more tolerated the humans rather than actually being friends with them. But this is turning into a whole different debate all together.
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Re: Tess the real dupe?

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My main point was just that Isabel and Michael were more ingrained and more hospitable to the humans then Tess was. The group wasn't exactly the same kind of group from the series Friends. But for the most part they were all together and they all seemed to at least try to like one another. There were several people in the group that hung out more with each other than others but all in all I would say that Isabel and Michael were open to friendship with the humans more so then Tess was and they often either extended or accepted olive branches more then Tess offered or accepted. Michael and Isabel at least had some foreground with Maria and Liz for the most part to build a relationship with them. Ditto with Kyle in the third season. With Tess it was impossible because she scorched any possibility of growth with nearly all of the humans.
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Re: Tess the real dupe?

Post by Cocogurl »

You make a good point. I guess I always felt like throughout the series, the writers didn't let the aliens interact enough with the humans that weren't their love interests. I mean, they had some moments, but then it seemed like those moments disappeared as quickly as they came. But I do see what you're saying.
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Re: Tess the real dupe?

Post by valentinebaby »

Sin wrote: I just have to say that there seems to be a bit of revisionism here. Tess was by no means a confused victim in all of this. She was way to proactive, way to in control and had numerous choices that she could of made but she made all of the wrong ones and she deserve contempt. I say to her fans revel in her evilness and own the canon of the character. Because that is true to who Tess is. To be honest I don't think Tess herself would ever want the label of victimized ingenue.
I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. Tess played the victim card in 4AAAB. I don't honestly think she ever thought of herself as one, even then, but I think she was.
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Re: Tess the real dupe?

Post by Cocogurl »

valentinebaby wrote:I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. Tess played the victim card in 4AAAB. I don't honestly think she ever thought of herself as one, even then, but I think she was.
That I can actually agree with in a way. There are plenty of bad guys that aren't like, "Grr, I'm evil." In Tess' mind, she probably didn't even really see herself as a villian. Does this make me feel sorry for her? No, not really, because again, she still had a choice and she chose the one that involved screwing over the people she dared to call family--I'm including Jim and Kyle in that, because she really broke their hearts. However, it does help me understand her somewhat--ONLY somewhat.
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